Need to be conversational in Mandarin FAST

[neverending]

@neverending: Can you share your experience of how you remember characters with us?

To someone who's already learned Chinese to a reasonable level, there's actually not much to it. It's mainly a combination of memorisation techniques that benefit my particular learning style. There's something in common with imron's style - I break characters down into components, and repeat the meaning/pronunciation in my head while I stare at it. What he said about memorising pronunciation being a learned ability is spot on. I see each component as a whole, however, and don't usually attempt to draw it in my mind.

I also incorporate mnemonics for characters I'm having trouble with, after I've already failed to memorise it. Mnemonics are too time costly to use for every character, I believe.

When using SRS, I test pronunciation and meaning separately. Most of my focus is on making individual reviews as short as possible (for cards I know, usually less than 2 seconds), even if that means that I end up repeating certain problem characters more often. I know that memory experts say that struggling to remember something for a while will help you remember more effectively, but I've found personally that struggling to remember a character simply indicates I'm going to forget it entirely by the next iteration. So, if I can't remember a character in less than 5 seconds, I mark it as failed and attempt to rememorise it with a new approach.

(My usage of SRS, however, is based strongly on personal experience, and goes against what a lot of people say you should do, so your mileage may vary!)

My character memorisation is further cut to a minimum because I keep my character learning in line with my reading ability. There's no point in learning 5000 characters when you can only read children's books. I only learn characters I have encountered/I'm likely to encounter in texts set at my current level. Then, whenever I practice reading, I'm reinforcing everything I've learned so far.

[laurenth]

@ neverending

Like le, de, ne, ma, and other grammatical particles, jiu has multiple uses that need to be illustrated and explained. For such words, you simply can't use flashcards to learn them.

You can and should use sentence flashcards for those words (in fact, I would argue that you should use sentence flashcards for all words), using simple sentences that illustrate the use (rather than the meaning, if any) of such characters.

I know it's possible learn to simply identify a character in less than a minute, and with effective use of flashcards, I can permanently memorise a character's appearance in around 2.5 minutes total. (If you're interested, I can expound on exactly how I do this.)

I'm always interested in learning about other techniques. Could you explain please? Thanks!

EDIT: -- I hadn't seen you had answered that already. Thanks for sharing.

[neverending]

You can and should use sentence flashcards for those words (in fact, I would argue that you should use sentence flashcards for all words), using simple sentences that illustrate the use (rather than the meaning, if any) of such characters.

Point taken. Sentence flashcards are great for memorising grammar patterns. But, while we're being pedantic, in order to use sentence flashcards you need to understand firstly how each word contributes to the overall meaning of the sentence. For words like 就, you need to consult a grammar explanation rather than a dictionary definition to understand what its function is. That's all I was really trying to say.

On a slightly related note, I wouldn't suggest that sentence flashcards are the be-all, end-all. Sure, AJATT shows great success, and for certain goals/learning styles there's nothing better. However, considering my goal right now is almost exclusively comprehension and I want to enjoy my learning as much as possible, I find extensive reading/listening tends to suit me much more.

Having said that, sentence flashcards are useful for those who need to start producing language ASAP. Maybe you could post a link about sentence flashcarding for the benefit of the OP?

[irishpolyglot]

Having attempted something along these lines myself, I think I can add some input to this thread. If moderators think that the controversy surrounding my attempts to learn Mandarin mean it would be better I avoid such contributions in future (such as if the topic sways too much away from helping the OP), then let me know and I'll avoid such contributions in future.

I met a guy who had been living in a very small town deep in China for 3 months and had an incredibly frustrating time to eventually have next to no Mandarin. He was quite annoyed when he met me at a Couchsurfing meeting here in Shanghai and saw me casually converse with some natives, since I also started to learn Chinese exactly 3 months ago. I have plenty of problems with my Mandarin (mostly lack of vocab), but I am comfortable in using it in social situations. Since I wanted to be a help, I compared what he did with what I did. With this in mind, here are a few suggestions that also may apply to your situation:

• Ditch your English speaking social circle, apart from your wife of course. This sounds drastic, but if you are truly serious about improving quickly then you absolutely must make sacrifices - all that time speaking English outside of work is what is truly slowing you down. The expat bubble is the main reason so many people abroad never learn, rather than their intelligence, lack of time etc. If this means you don't get to be so social for a few months, it's quite unfortunate, but will work for you in the long term. I had a pretty damn lonely 3 months in Taipei, since I could only socialise superficially when I did, since I'd do it in Mandarin, but it has been a short term sacrifice with many long term gains.
  
• Make your goal to be to speak as much as possible, NOT to be to speak as correctly as possible. I embraced making mistakes, sacrificing elegance for the sake of actually participating in conversations. "I try to speak as much as possible daily" - I'm sorry but this may not be good enough. "Do or do not, there is no try" as Yoda says.
  
• Start learning set phrases that you are likely to say often - this isn't conversing of course, but it gives you a great boost to get some flow before you have to be spontaneous. Many of us repeat the same concepts over and over again. I'd definitely write out an introduction about yourself, have someone correct it and memorise that.
  
• Get more private lessons with a native - you can of course do it in person, but I've actually found that italki has VERY affordable teachers if you don't mind Skype based lessons. This also saves time in travelling to meet the teacher, or paying for them to travel to meet you, and lets you try out way more teachers until you find one that really works for you. The point is to force yourself to converse with someone who is highly motivated to listen to you struggle, and correct your worse mistakes.
  
• The number one rule in these classes and in general when using the language, must be "no English under any circumstances". Use of verbs like 作　and adjectives like 好 can get you very far, even if you know there is a better one you should use.
  
• Accept that it's going to hurt. Some of my worst weeks (in terms of morale) were actually my best weeks in terms of progress. One of the best decisions I made in these 3 months was to sign up for 3 hours of spoken lessons a day, even when all I could do was muster out set phrases at the time, and an actual conversation was beyond me. I had the worst week ever, since I felt like an idiot most of the day, but I was forced out of my comfort zone, and eventually didn't feel tired from trying to keep the conversation flowing. Sitting down studying can not help you make this important progress, as important as it is.
  
• I agree with what others have said about reading Chinese, especially if you are a visual learner. My focus was to recognise characters and this is a world easier than writing them, but simply recognising them lets me write them "digitally", since I'll punch in the pinyin on my computer or smartphone and know which character to pick. I'd highly recommend memrise.com as it gives an effective visual means to recall characters, which is a lot snappier than learning them with stroke order. Based on your preferences (and mine), I'd recommend skipping stroke order entirely for now. You may be proud of being able to write those 100 characters, but you'd be at a much higher number by now if your focus was purely on recognition.
  
• Recognise that "conversational" is NOT that far off, and can indeed be achieved quickly if you put your mind to it. Sure, mastering Chinese could take years, but given your objectives and specific uses of the language, you can indeed reach it, if you make some important sacrifices.
  
• "Do you guys think memorizing random words (nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, etc.) that I find in character books (the books where they give a character and use it in some sentences, such as Chinese in a Flash) is a good idea," I have to say that I don't think this is such a great idea. "Random words" are not what you need to say and what you may tend to hear. As someone else pointed out, taking a pen and paper to your actual conversations and making a note of THOSE words (that you need to say, and that THEY say frequently) is so much more effective. The emotional context of words that you genuinely come across in the real world is much more effective than random ones that you come across while studying.
  
• Focus on getting up one small but achievable level at a time. Yes, you do need complicated words to speak it fluently, but right now those words are low priority. A "triage" system of only learning what is most essential to you right now is much more effective. I'm glad to read that you are not obsessed with perfectionism, as this makes it next to impossible to make incremental improvements, and is only effective for long-term strategies that don't have your urgency.
  

Not to be confrontational, but I disagree with one of the above replies:

• "Essentially, until your Mandarin level is higher than the English level of those with whom you're conversing, everything will default to English." Absolutely not! Nobody EVER speaks English to me when I start in Mandarin and do it in such a way as to make it seem like I'm very comfortable - I'm as white as anyone else, but I pretend like I know what I'm doing and open in Mandarin confidently. "Fake it 'till you make it". The only place in Taipei that anyone ever answered back in English over 3 entire months was Starbucks, and I've noticed when someone does speak Mandarin to me that if I slip up and am not sure, if they DO say something in English their English is much better than my Mandarin, but the conversation stays in Mandarin. This has also been my experience in Shanghai over the last days, and I'm in a very central area of the city (Jing'an) where a lot of people DO speak English. It's the apparent confidence, NOT the apparent level that dictates which language a conversation will be in.
  

My two cents. Keep in mind that long-term strategies for people who enjoy learning languages may simply not be effective at all for someone with your urgency and opportunities to use the language on a daily basis right now.

[imron]

If moderators think that the controversy surrounding my attempts to learn Mandarin mean it would be better I avoid such contributions

On topic contributions, including disagreements with what others have posted, are welcome by anyone. If things go too off-topic, we'll deal with it, but just to make sure there's no confusion, for other readers, this is not the thread to discuss Benny's Mandarin.

[laurenth]

On a slightly related note, I wouldn't suggest that sentence flashcards are the be-all, end-all. However, considering my goal right now is almost exclusively comprehension and I want to enjoy my learning as much as possible, I find extensive reading/listening tends to suit me much more.

Agreed. Flashcarding (words or sentences or whatever) is just a means to an end. But you have to accumulate some vocab before you can attempt extensive reading. And yet, there are a few excellent ressources available to get you started with extensive reading very soon (Chinese Breeze...). So I would say that, as soon as you have

300 characters under your belt, you should complement flashcarding with reading and hope that it will soon be the other way around.

Maybe you could post a link about sentence flashcarding for the benefit of the OP?

You mentioned AJATT, which is full of interesting ideas. However, any basic grammar book or teaching method should contain grammar examples that can become flashcards.

Examples for 就, taken in Schaum's outlines of Chinese grammar:

FRONT: 我就有一块钱。 BACK: nothing (if possible)

FRONT: 图书馆就在这儿。

FRONT: - 你找谁？- 我找白丽娜。- 我就是。

FRONT: 我就来。

FRONT: 我吃了饭就走。

You can also use Cloze deletions:

我[...]有一块钱。

图书馆[...]在这儿。

- 你找谁？- 我找白丽娜。- 我[...]是。

我[...]来。

我吃了饭[...]走。

[siledouyaoai]

Not to be confrontational, but I disagree with one of the above replies:

• "Essentially, until your Mandarin level is higher than the English level of those with whom you're conversing, everything will default to English." Absolutely not! Nobody EVER speaks English to me when I start in Mandarin and do it in such a way as to make it seem like I'm very comfortable - I'm as white as anyone else, but I pretend like I know what I'm doing and open in Mandarin confidently. "Fake it 'till you make it". The only place in Taipei that anyone ever answered back in English over 3 entire months was Starbucks, and I've noticed when someone does speak Mandarin to me that if I slip up and am not sure, if they DO say something in English their English is much better than my Mandarin, but the conversation stays in Mandarin. This has also been my experience in Shanghai over the last days, and I'm in a very central area of the city (Jing'an) where a lot of people DO speak English. It's the apparent confidence, NOT the apparent level that dictates which language a conversation will be in.
  

I think this really depends on what the aim of your conversation is. If your only aim is to practice Chinese, then yes, you can direct the conversation to areas you are familiar with, and so make up for the difference in language ability. I see people do this a lot, and it seems to give the impression you have much higher spoken ability than you actually have. However, put yourself in a context where you have specific aims which are beyond your ability, take away the luxury of being able to go off on tangents and suddenly talk about whatever you want, then this strategy falls down very quickly, and conversations will naturally revert to the language which both speakers are most familiar. This I feel is the position the OP is in, if wants to conduct business meetings in Chinese. I think John's article on Sinoplice is spot on with that.

[irishpolyglot]

Before business meetings come simple interactions and socialising, and here what I said still applies. If the OP wants to host a business conference this year, then I'm fresh out of ideas, but if he wants to get a start on getting comfortable, then suggestions that people will always switch to English when their level is higher than his are untrue and unhelpful. I find such comments encourage monolingualism and are among the core issues of expats not learning the local language because there's no way out - you can "never" practise the language because nobody (except teachers) will ever have patience to listen to you try, and this is simply not true.

Let's focus on basic conversation in the language first, and then worry about complex business negotiations after that, no? This is the problem that I was talking about - taking it step at a time focusing on how you can get up to the next level immediately above where you are now, rather than just having a 2 year strategy only focused on the goals for 2 years' time. After getting the confidence to speak in social situations, then stepping up to business discussions will be MUCH easier, than aiming for that right now from the start.

The premise of John's article makes perfect sense, but I still disagree as it's too simplified. In my experience with Chinese and many other languages, how confident and determined one speaker is will determine if he decides which language the exchange will be in, regardless of if the other person speaks a different common language better. (Another deciding factor is accent: I've found that in European languages, even if someone speaks it really well, if he has a very English 'R', then the other person will be more likely to switch to English, which is independent of actual language skills).

[siledouyaoai]

True, but I think for most people there's a correlation between confidence and your linguistic ability. Unless you're naturally extremely confident and outgoing, it's going to be tough to get people whose level is way above yours in English to speak to you in Chinese. That's my own experience in learning Chinese, but it might be different for other people.

That's not to say that I'm advocating monolingualism, I just think it's sometimes useful to be realistic about the difficulties of learning a language like Chinese.

[irishpolyglot]

And what extinguishes confidence better than telling someone "nobody will ever want to speak with you unless you're paying them"? This is my point and why I argued your claim - the claim itself becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Confidence isn't just something people either have or don't have as part of their genetic make-up, but is something they can learn to incorporate, just like many other aspects of a language and socialising. Simply stopping yourself from thinking "nobody wants to speak with me" can be a conscious decision. But if you are very sure that nobody wants to speak with you and keep telling yourself that, then it will indeed become true.

One person's "useful to be realistic" is another's "wasteful to be pessimistic".

[realmayo]

If the only reason you're talking to the pretty girl is to stare at her cleavage, well, she might be fine with that, she might not be, or she might not realise your ulterior motives. Or maybe she's selling you beer and figures it's a fair exchange.

Same goes for talking to someone you don't know because you want to improve your Chinese. If your Chinese is worse than their English, you're putting them through a degree of discomfort for your own selfish reasons. Sometimes the person you're talking to won't mind that discomfort at all, for all sorts of reasons. Or sometimes they will mind but cede to you because you're confident, or because they're polite.

Edit: "you" here being generic & doesn't mean irishpolyglot: his post above came in while I was typing mine.

[irishpolyglot]

I'm not sure comparing conversing with natives in their language when you are in their country to disrespecting a girl is so clear, maybe I'm missing something?

You have to remember that it can also be THEIR own selfish reasons to get free English practice, even if their English IS better than your Chinese - it's still using you, when English lessons and practice are at a premium price. Your need is clearly more urgent if you are living in the country. Just my opinion of course.

It's not fair either way, but in general I've found that many countries have people who are happy to help you. It's not that they are "polite", or that you've beaten them down with your confidence, but that they see you are determined and feel compelled to help you succeed. They are giving you a hand, whereas perhaps you may not be so generous with someone struggling with English while speaking it to you in USA/UK. This is unfortunate, but a cultural problem that is not universal.

If someone met me in Ireland and was struggling with English, even though I might speak their language better, if they made the obvious point that they really need to practice English, and are in an English speaking country, then why would I argue with them? It would be more selfish of me, than selfish of them.

I really see all these arguments against actually using the language as exactly the kind of thing that will keep the OP from succeeding. I'm not sure I see the point in giving up and accepting that putting your foot down once in a while and insisting on speaking the language of the country you are in, as something that actually needs to be discouraged... To me it seems incredibly reasonable. Personally I do find that this train of thought of comments on this page does indeed encourage expat bubbles that never really progress in the local language. It's just not practical advice when you are in the country.

[simplet]

If the only reason you're talking to the pretty girl is to stare at her cleavage, well, she might be fine with that, she might not be, or she might not realise your ulterior motives. Or maybe she's selling you beer and figures it's a fair exchange.

Same goes for talking to someone you don't know because you want to improve your Chinese. If your Chinese is worse than their English, you're putting them through a degree of discomfort for your own selfish reasons. Sometimes the person you're talking to won't mind that discomfort at all, for all sorts of reasons. Or sometimes they will mind but cede to you because you're confident, or because they're polite.

This is pretty much my problem with the "speaking all the time" approach. A lot of the time people overestimate the degree of annoyance you cause people by forcing them to become free language tutors for you, but the annoyance is still there. And context is everything.

When I come accross an amerian tourist in Paris that's stuck in the subway and uses French to ask me for directions, I will go out of my way to speak to him in french slowly and make sure he understands, I might even chat with him for a while. When I'm in china and some guy comes to me and whips out a note book with english small talk, then asks for my phone number after wasting my time for 15 minutes, my politeness is already stretched pretty thin (and I'm a VERY polite person). Personnally I much prefer language exchange, I just feel weird not giving anything in return. but if you have the confidence and the know-how, then more power to you, it's probably a good way to make progress in (some parts of) your language learning.

[thechamp]

I agree with Benny. It's a real shame to be saying this guy shouldn't be speaking. That's how you practice after all. And eventually you get better than most locals and this problem goes away....and goes away for the benefit of all the Chinese people you then meet. Also, you can function in the society, which is what the OP wants.

PS Benny, I thought you were an arrogant w@nker at first but now I think I get your mission and I think it's quite admirable.

[realmayo]

I completely agree with simplet. People have been talking about how it's important to feel confident talking in a foreign language, but I think feeling comfortable is just as important (or is part of the same thing). If I feel I'm imposing on someone, I generally feel uncomfortable and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't get the language-learning benefit that I would if I felt relaxed and comfortable in a conversation.

To be a bit more extreme: you can improve your Kung Fu by punching random people in the street but most people would feel uncomfortable about doing that kind of thing.

As for linking this discussion to people living in expat bubbles, that makes no logical sense whatsoever: if you're talking to lots of native speakers who speak better English than you speak Chinese, you're not in an expat bubble, because those people are native speakers, not expats!

The people who have given me the most help and encouragement learning Chinese, and who have been patient and often pushed me to speak in Chinese even when their English was better than my Chinese, have mostly been friends. When I first went to China I couldn't speak a word of the language -- and if I hadn't been able to speak English to the people I first met, they wouldn't have become friends in the first place. But if you've only got limited time to spend in a country I guess this approach wouldn't work so "efficiently".

[siledouyaoai]

And what extinguishes confidence better than telling someone "nobody will ever want to speak with you unless you're paying them"? This is my point and why I argued your claim - the claim itself becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm saying that this is the way I found learning Chinese to be, not the way I'd like it to be, so I think we're coming at this from different angles. I think if you have a strong enough motivation, anyone will find confidence in a language, but your source of confidence is going to be different for different people. I found the claims made by 30 day courses which I studied when I first started studying Chinese to be a drain in confidence, as it gave me expectations over what was reasonable. When I went out on the street I still felt uncomfortable, no matter what the textbook claimed. I can see what you are saying about self fulfilling prophecies in theory, but there are down sides to being unrealistic as well.

I also feel it's also dangerous to divide everything into dichotomies and claim that one side is correct and the other is wrong, this just oversimplifies a complex problem. I have no mind to encourage expat bubbles, just think a more measured approach is probably going to be far more fruitful in the long term.

[thechamp]

I think you have to just suck it up and speak to people. It's not 'that' impolite. In fact it's probably like having a conversation with a child. I mostly hate talking to children but if a friend's younger sibling or child started chatting to me about some cr@p they thought was interesting, I'd entertain them for a while. I expect the same from random Chinese people and I extend the same courtesy to them. I don't think either of us enjoy it in the same way we'd enjoy talking to a native speaker!

[simplet]

I think you have to just suck it up and speak to people. It's not 'that' impolite. In fact it's probably like having a conversation with a child. I mostly hate talking to children but if a friend's younger sibling or child started chatting to me about some cr@p they thought was interesting, I'd entertain them for a while. I expect the same from random Chinese people and I extend the same courtesy to them. I don't think either of us enjoy it in the same way we'd enjoy talking to a native speaker!

Right. But you're not really having deep meaningful relationships with those kids right? You're just "entertaining them" for 10 minutes while you're waiting for the moment you can finally get out of that conversation and go on with your life.

Same thing with talking to random chinese people. They'll humour you for up to 15 minutes, especially if you really need something and you're not just small-talking them for nothing in the middle of the street, but sooner or later if your chinese is not already up to a certain level or you don't give them something in exchange, they'll just find an excuse and move on. At some point you need some actual friends, and you won't find friends that way. You can only talk about the weather so much.

[roddy]

There's an amazing amount of typing going on about what is surely not that complicated. Try and speak Chinese. If speaking Chinese is making you look inconsiderate or rude, speak some English and / or go away. If the woman behind the counter is smiling and encouraging you to continue trying to explain what you want, on you go. If she's frowning, there's a queue behind you and someone's just come up to ask in English if you need any help - do it in English, or get out the way of the queue.

Where people want to draw the line between consideration for others and their language learning needs is up to them.

[neverending]

I think there's a compromise - pick who you talk to carefully. Obviously you can't just bother anyone to start a conversation - we don't do that in our native language, so why would we get away with it in a foreign language? But, as John over at Sinosplice has demonstrated, finding willing conversation partners is possible when they're bored, even if your conversation skills are lacking:

http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2007/05/13/how-i-learned-chinese-part-2

I've had similar experiences in the past, usually with bored shopkeepers. The key is to pick the right time/place. The person shouldn't be in a rush or busy, and must have a job that involves a lot of waiting. (Also, old people are great. They're less likely to know English, they more likely to be retired+bored, and for some reason, they're more gregarious no matter what country you're in.) Also, I've had many nice experiences with people who actually start conversations with me, cause I've remembered not to wear my "don't bother me" face.