Difference between 真 and 很

[陳德聰]

I'm not sure I can see the analogy there. Most native speakers don't specifically learn exactly how to use each word, but they don't have to because they get the meanings of basic things like this for free. Maybe you're okay with skipping basic distinctions between words but I'd much rather know whether "amber" is more common or normal than "orange" to describe an orange so I don't go around thinking it sounds find to call everything orange "amber".

[hedwards]

I think you're misunderstanding how people learn language. There are no free words that native speakers get. I've been watching my 6 year old nephew for years as he's learned English and he's working very hard at it.

The big difference is that natives don't get to delude themselves into thinking they can master the language without using it and they don't have the option of relying upon another language for explanation as to why the language works the way it does.

As far as colors go,there are a ridiculously large number of named colors, thousands of them. At some point nearly everybody rounds it off because it's not important. For beginners knowing the difference between very and really is a complete waste of time. Yes, they are different, but what other "essential" pieces of language are they supposed to displace in order to learn the word? Until a student knows a couple thousand words that cover most tyical situations, there's just no reason to get the most specific words possible as there's so many ideas that can't be expressed at all.

Yes, we can learn the Chinese equivalents for run, jog, walk, dawdle, wander, mosey, regress, meander, limp and whatever other words that mean roughly moving on feet in some manner, or we can realize that most of those are tier 3 words and just ignore them until they come up in context. By which point, we're more likely to remember them and much more likely to be able to use them.

Until somebody has a solid grasp on most of the tier 1 vocabulary or has a burning desire to talk about a niche interest, they should focus first on those close enough words. You can always expand your vocabulary, but adding 3 or 4 words a day is a lot easier than trying to add them all at once.

sorry, for the wall of text, I hope that makes some sense.

[tooironic]

But 真 and 很 are not like obscure colour words, or the many words for walk. They are common, everyday terms. If a learner is confused about their usage, asking for help is very necessary.

 

[hedwards]

sigh, is there any point in me posting things here? Believe it or not, I don't post things here so that I can read my own comments.

I get that not everybody here was able to go to a high quality institution of higher learning, but these aren't exactly hard to grasp analogies I'm using.

[Demonic_Duck]

First you defend sloppy language learning, then you accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you of being dense. Nice logical gymnastics, there.

 

Back to the topic: I still don't think “很” carries the same degree of intensity as English “very”. Bear in mind that in a lot of situations it's simply ungrammatical to take the “很” out of the sentence; it's necessary gramatically for the sentence to function properly, rather than being an optional addition. “真”, on the other hand, obviously intensifies the previous word.

 

According to dictionary definitions, “蛮” and “挺” are less intense than “很”, but the feeling I get from these words is generally one of satisfaction with the situation, so I feel that in a lot of circumstances they actually add more to the following adjective than the default “很”.

 

I could be wrong here, or maybe these things are simply subjective to a certain degree, and (in spoken language at least) tone of voice play a bigger role in conveying meaning than the actual adverb used.

[realmayo]

 I still don't think “很” carries the same degree of intensity as English “very”.

 

 

That's often -- usually -- the case, where 很 just links the noun and the adjective.

 

Do you think it's the case that often if you're describing a state which is more-than-usual (he's tall, it's cold), 很 isn't really intensifying the degree to which there's difference, it's just pointing out that there's difference from the norm. 

 

If there's no 很 then what happens? To my ears it sound like you're saying 'he is taller than this person' rather than 'he is taller than average'.

 

So: when would you say 他很高兴 and when would you say 他高兴?

Or 他很高 and 他高.

[realmayo]

Did some googling and it looks like I remembered right       :

 

Po and Rimmington’s ‘Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar’ (Routledge) has a good explanation for why ‘我好’ is not a well-formed answer to ‘你好嗎?’.... Having the predicative adjective unmarked implies a contrast, ‘I’m good (but not him!)’. A degree adverb like 很 is needed to get a neutral reading. P and R further remark that ‘in fact the degree adverb很 hen3 ‘very’, unless it is emphasized, does not really mean ‘very’, and its integration into an adjectival predicative is more often than not to counteract an implication of contrast.’ (p.60) 

 

(from http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/5977/could-certain-adjectives-or-adverbs-be-analysed-to-function-as-a-type-of-copula)

 

 

So I think this formula:

 

还好 < 蛮好/挺好 < 很好 < 真好 < 非常好 < 太好了

... is misleading because unless there's special emphasis being put on the 很, the 很 is neutral.

 

 

The Allset Learning website has an explanation here: http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Simple_%22noun_%2B_adjective%22_sentences

Nouns are linked to nouns with 是 (shì). Nouns are linked to adjectives with 很 (hěn).

... but I think it's simplistic because I like how DeFrancis splits English-adjectives into two Chinese categories: "stative verbs" (e.g. 高 = to be  tall)  and "attributives": words which have no possible function other than that of attributive (e.g. 公共 in 公共汽车). So for stative verbs there is no need for a  是-equivalent, cos it's a verb already. So I don't like saying that 很 does to adjectives what 是 does to nouns. (Also I'm pretty sure you can't say 很+'attributive' e.g. 很公共.)

 

However the Allset page does point out that for 很+psychological verbs, the 很 is intensifying: e.g. 喜欢, 了解, 希望, 讨厌, 失望, 伤心, 满意, 想念.

[imron]

but these aren't exactly hard to grasp analogies I'm using.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you about beginners not needing to learn words such as 'meander' or 'amber', but as tooironic pointed out 'very' and 'really' aren't suited to your analogies because they are not obscure words, and both would fall firmly inside 'tier 1' words that beginners need to have a solid grasp of.  According to Junda frequency statistics 很 comes in at #138 and 真 at #204 and a beginner really would come across as quite strange if they were using 真 everywhere instead of 很.

[Demonic_Duck]

And also, if you go around using “amber” or “琥珀色” all the time instead of “orange” or “橙色”, your speech will sound affected, and people will give you funny looks.

[maomao2014]

I have to say it is a bit like I studied English when I was at school, trying to figure out the meaning of every single word, but it did not help much. I improve my English a lot when I studied in the UK. 很and 真are very commonly used words. Before you can use well these two words, you need to study more Chinese, talk with some Chinese friends and get the feeling of the language. Language feeling is very vague thing, but it is very important, it is from accumulation of studying. My one friend's English was very good, and always scored high mark in school. When we asked her why she used one word instead of another, she said it felt right. I believe when you ask your Chinese friend why they use this word instead of others, they will also say it feels right. I agree with @hedwards, do not struggle too much on one particular grammar issue, keep studying, and you will figure out how to use them properly. As an English learner, after more than 10 years of studying,I still find simple words difficult to use properly.

[Demonic_Duck]

I agree that getting the feel for the language is very important, but there's nothing to stop you from using shortcuts. One such shortcut is translation into your mother tongue: I can't imagine any person who learned Chinese as an adult learned the difference between “你” and “我”, or “红” and “绿”, by developing their 语感. Even for reasonably advanced learners this is the quickest method for certain concepts; for example, it's much more efficient to learn that “胆固醇” means cholesterol, than to read a technical description of it in Chinese. Even if you're a scientist, all you'll get from the technical description is “oh, so it means cholesterol”.

 

Another shortcut (slightly more meandering but still a shortcut) is to look for explanations of differences between words, either in your native language or in the target language. In a lot of cases, that's your only option as far as shortcuts go - the words simply don't map precisely to concepts in your native language. If a Chinese speaker learning English wants to know the difference between “question” and “problem”, there's no point telling her that both of them mean “问题”. Again, she could rely on developing her 语感 over time, but it's vastly quicker for her to just read a description of how the concepts differ. Or perhaps to ask on an internet forum .

[陳德聰]

The spectrum I gave was specifically for contexts where 很 and 真 are supposedly interchangeable, i.e. when denoting degree. But even when reading 很 as neutral, it still makes sense because 還好 and 挺好 are both not as good as just "good".

 

Edit:

Also there is something highly amusing to me about a person who went to graduate school, with a teaching degree, complaining that the reason people don't understand them is the inadequacy of the reader. I guess this type of teacher encounters many "stupid" students who just can't get it. Let's compare our institutions' rankings when we get a chance.

[realmayo]

 because 還好 and 挺好 are both not as good as just "good".

 

That's usually true for 還好 but I have to admit I'd never realised 挺好 was weaker than just "good". Is that true?

[skylee]

I think 挺好 is pretty good. AFAIK, definitely not "not as good as just "good"". The MOE dictionary says 挺 means "很、甚", which is in line with my understanding.

[陳德聰]

Hm... in English and in Chinese I put 很好 and "good" above 挺好 and "pretty good", but 甚... I would have said the connotation is higher degree than both of the above.

[realmayo]

Another question: we've established that often/usually, 很 isn't used to intensify the adjective. Is that true also for 挺? i.e. does 挺 work exactly the same here as 很?

Or, if you use 挺 are you definitely intensifying the adjective?

[hedwards]

@陳德聰,

 

In this case, I'd say that's fair. I can't force you to open your mind up. If you can't accept the notion that people can't learn a whole language all at once, then there's not really anything that I can say. I will tell you though, that when you were learning your first language, you did get away with a lot of "sloppy" language in terms of good enough. I did, you did, everybody in this thread did. For the simple reason that waiting until you can say everything perfectly every time would mean that you'd never speak ever. It's one of the biggest sources of failure.

 

I was perfectly patient early on, but I got testy when people started to put words in my mouth and just generally behave like arrogant jackwagons. I'm not being paid to explain this to you. You wanted an answer and I gave you an answer, there's no reason to be a jerk about it.

 

Anyways, I'm out of here, I'm not going to waste any more of my time on this.

[Demonic_Duck]

I think you've got 陈德聪 mixed up with me, and having rolled us up into a single person, turned that person into a strawman. No-one at any point in this thread has suggested anything remotely like "people learn a whole language all at once".

 

I also wasn't attacking sloppy speaking by beginners (or even by advanced learners - we all have bad days, and if you never get anything wrong you're not challenging yourself enough). I was attacking sloppy learning where you assume basic words like “真” and “很” are interchangeable, and then claim that it's pointless to even try to distinguish between them unless you're at a very high level. This is not analogous to the difference between “red” and “vermillion”, “purple” and “violet” etc. If you're going with colours, it's more analogous to the difference between “red” and “orange”, or “purple” and “pink”. Or, to pick two words from your walking analogy, it's like “walk” and “run”. Would you argue that these words are interchangeable, that using them interchangeably doesn't impede communication, and that learning the difference between them as a beginner is pointless?

[陳德聰]

@realmayo:

 

Consider

 

这部电影我看了三遍，觉得[很好看]

这部电影我看了三遍，觉得[挺好看的]

 

I wouldn't frame this as "intensifying" the adjective, it's just denoting the degree, but 很 is a higher degree than 挺. I don't know how it can be argued otherwise...

[Altair]

 

这部电影我看了三遍，觉得[很好看]

这部电影我看了三遍，觉得[挺好看的]

 

I have a question that is slightly off topic.  What aspect of the grammar motivated you to spoil the exact parallelism and add 的 to the second example?

 

Here is my take on the issue of whether 很 is normally used to intensify the adjective.  I think the issue is that English and Chinese are subtly and importantly different in both the relevant grammar and lexis, rendering this question unanswerable in this form.

 

The word "good" expresses a default value on a scale; whereas 好 simply names the scale without a specific default.  That is why "this is good" and 这个好 do not normally mean quite the same thing.  It is also probably the reason why English needs a specific comparative form (i.e., "better"); whereas Chinese doesn't.  It is also the reason why 高低 means "height" as a scale more than "high" and/or "low" as alternatives.

 

Another difference is that English verbs differentiate what are called moods so that the "is" in "this is good" clearly represents an assertion about reality.  Chinese does not make this distinction, but is rather organized into topic-comment structure.  The 好 in 这个好 simply states that 好 (or "being good") is a relevant thing to say about 这个.  These two different approaches have implications for the rest of the grammar.

 

For 好 to get a default value on the scale requires adding 很.  For "is good" to name the scale of goodness requires using one of the many forms that eliminate any assertion or declarative mood, such as "being good."

 

Since 好 by itself doesn't assert very much, that is also probably the reason why Chinese requires explicit statements of aspect more frequently than English.  Without the aspect particles, the Chinese does not clearly assert anything beyond relevance.  The word 好 can cover "being good," "becoming good," "being merely okay," or "becoming okay."

 

My health is fine (now).

我的身体好了。

 

The "now" is optional in English; whereas the 了 in Chinese is not.  Saying 我的身体好 is very vague without context, just informing about the "goodness of my health" without clearly asserting it.  Even 我的身体好了 does not really say that your health is good, but rather that is now relevant to put it on the scale of goodness.  In other words, it is okay (without necessarily being "good.").  There are also differences in the grammatical aspect, but those are not what I am now discussing.

 

My health is good.

我的身体很好。

 

Now, with the addition of 很, the Chinese makes a clear assertion about the goodness of the health.

 

Okay, okay!

好了。好了。

 

Again, 好了 does not assert that things are good, but merely that they are okay.  They are now on the scale of goodness, or good enough.

 

It's (very) good now.

很好了。

 

Now, we are really talking about something good.

 

As for 挺 and some of its potential English equivalents ("pretty," "quite," "rather,"), I think part of the problem is that the latter are vague as to intensity.  For instance, "It's pretty cold today" does not clearly express a greater or lesser degree of coldness than "It's cold today" or "it's very cold today."  What it does express is tentativeness or surprise about the judgement or conclusion, whatever that happens to be.  "Quite" expresses the opposite: the conclusion is definite.  "Rather" expresses a contrast.  To my feeling, only "kind of" clearly expresses a lesser degree than "very."

 

Here is what one of my Pleco Dictionary says (GF):

 

注意“最”“顶”“很”“非常”“挺”“怪”等都是程度副词，但所表示的程度高低有所不同。“最”和“顶”表示程度最高， 而“顶”只用于口语；“很”“非常”表示程度十分高，但次于"最"和"顶"；“挺”“怪"表示程度较高，但次于“很”和“非常”，用于口语。

 

 

My translation for those whose Chinese is even weaker than mine:

Note: “最”“顶”“很”“非常”“挺”“怪” etc. are adverbs of degree, but the amount of degree they express is different.  “最” and “顶” express a high degree, but “顶” is used only in colloquial speech.  “很” and “非常” express an extremely high degree, but are not as strong as "最" and "顶".  “挺” and “怪" express that the degree is rather high, but are not as strong as “很” and “非常” and are used in colloquial speech.