ala Posted January 9, 2004 at 01:31 AM Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 at 01:31 AM [Romanization borrowed from a site I saw a while ago voiced initials are b,d,g,z,ng, voiceless aspirated (like pinyin k-,t-,p-) are Romanized here as k'-, t'-, p'-), voiceless unaspirated (like pinyin g-,d-,b-) are Romanized as k-, t-, p-. Hence k'- = pinyin k-, k- = pinyin g-, and g- = voiced g- (Mandarin does not have voiced consonants) "-ch" or double consonant (between syllables) = glottal stop; equivalent to Cantonese -k/-p/-t finals except don't pronounce the -ch. z- = English 'z', ts- = Pinyin c, tz- = Pinyin z, sh- ~ Pinyin x, ch- ~ Pinyin q] Shanghainese for "to be at" is "lahei" and is usually said at the end of the sentence in Subject-Object-Verb (SOV) order. Is there any other Chinese dialect with this concept? It seems that Shanghainese is even today very SOV based in many ways, which leads me to see that Mandarin is sometimes SOV too, although not nearly as extensive as Shanghainese. Examples: 1: non vei chikkula va? 儂 飯 喫過拉 伐？ you / food / have eaten / va? Have you eaten the food? 2: ngu vei chillahei. non ne? 我 飯 喫辣海。 儂 呢？ I / food / am eating (eat + am being). you / ne? I am eating the food. How about you? 1: ei mach chilla. non ei chillahei ah? 還 末 喫拉。儂 還 喫辣海 啊？ Still / not / have been eating. You / still / are eating / ah? Still haven't eaten. You are still eating? 2: ei. K'uro ei mach hatt'arei. 哎。可樂 還 末 喝特來。 Yeah. Coke / still / not / finished drinking Yeah. Still haven't finished drinking my Coke. 1: konkonchitswu-zeidou lei aritach? 公共汽車站頭 勒 何裏搭？ Bus stop / at, is at / where? Where's the bus stop? 2: leila immitach. 勒拉 伊面搭。 has been at / over there. It's over there. 1: ngu besshan tarei chillisset'ala. 我 白相 得來 喫力色特拉。 I / play / resulting / have been very tired I'm really tired from playing. 2: ei.. zi-e zi-e. ngu-e jich yijin chii p'oh lahei. 哎。。 是厄是厄。 我厄 腳 已經 起 泡 辣海。 Yeah.. / It is so, it is so.. / my / feet / already / to form / blisters / are being. Yeah... My feet are already blistering. Pronouns I = ngu 我 You = non 儂 He/she/it = yi 伊 We = alla 阿拉 You all = na 哪 They = yila 伊拉 Here = guttach, tsidik'ue 搿搭、此地塊 There = ittach/eitach 伊搭 Over there = immitach/eimitach 伊面搭 Where = aritach 何裏搭 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest greenpine Posted January 9, 2004 at 11:33 AM Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 at 11:33 AM hehe, this version of spelling scheme of shanghaian looks like a european language superficially ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted January 9, 2004 at 06:41 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 at 06:41 PM 1: non vei chikkula va? 儂 飯 喫過拉 伐？ you / food / have eaten / va? Have you eaten the food? 2: ngu vei chillahei. non ne? 我 飯 喫辣海。 儂 呢？ I / food / am eating (eat + am being). you / ne? I am eating the food. How about you? 1: ei mach chilla. non ei chillahei ah? 還 末 喫拉。儂 還 喫辣海 啊？ Still / not / have been eating. You / still / are eating / ah? Still haven't eaten. You are still eating? 2: ei. K'uro ei mach hatt'arei. 哎。可樂 還 末 喝特來。 Yeah. Coke / still / not / finished drinking Yeah. Still haven't finished drinking my Coke. Your examples are more like sentences in the passive voice. 1: non vei chikkula va? 儂 飯 喫過拉 伐？ you / food / have eaten / va? Have you eaten the food? In Mandarin and Cantonese, this would be: 你 （的） 饭 吃过了 吗？ 你 啲 饭 食咗 未？ your / food / have been eaten / * ? 2: ei. K'uro ei mach hatt'arei. 哎。可樂 還 末 喝特來。 Yeah. Coke / still / not / finished drinking Yeah. Still haven't finished drinking my Coke. Mand/Cant: （我的）可乐 还 没 喝完。 （我啲）可乐 仲 未 饮嗮。 In both examples, the SOVs could be interpreted as SVO in the passive voice. What you thought to be the objects were really subjects. But you've raised an interesting point, I do think there are occassions in which Chinese is used in the SOV form. Anyone care to give an uncontrovesial example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted January 9, 2004 at 06:49 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 at 06:49 PM Actually Chinese can also be in the OSV order. e.g. 那饭你吃了吗？ 作业你都做完了吗？ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Lee Posted January 9, 2004 at 07:10 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 at 07:10 PM Does 白相 (White face) mean playing in Shanghaiese? That looks like the Japanese Kanji 面白 (Face White) which means interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ala Posted January 9, 2004 at 07:29 PM Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 at 07:29 PM Your examples are more like sentences in the passive voice. In both examples' date=' the SOVs could be interpreted as SVO in the passive voice. What you thought to be the objects were really subjects. But you've raised an interesting point, I do think there are occassions in which Chinese is used in the SOV form. Anyone care to give an uncontrovesial example?[/quote'] No, it's not passive. It's instead topic-comment sentence structure. Very similar to Japanese -wa, -desu constructions. For example, you cannot explain this as passive for the following sentence (response) in Shanghainese: 我 电视 看辣海. ngu dizi keu-lahei. I am watching the TV. The verb is 看 (to watch), the tense aspect is 辣海 (present progressive). The object is 电视 (television), 电视 is not a subject in passive voice. Passive voice would have been: my television is being watched. The subject in my example is clearly 我, and independent of 电视 (object). It is not "my television." The specific (definite) topic is 电视, and general topic is 我. A better English translation of the sentence above would be: As for the television, I am watching. The only case I can think of where it is inherently passive is -特拉 ending (as in 饭 吃特拉), but that is because 特拉 serves as completion/exhaustion of the subject (ie: my food has been eaten), equivalent to Mandarin -掉了/完了. About the topic-comment structure... The above sentence I gave would be used if the topic of the conversation was "television." You address the topic, and then you comment about the topic. Hence structure can be SOV or OSV. I need to think about it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted January 9, 2004 at 07:48 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 at 07:48 PM I think Chinese as a language hasn't been understood well in Western studies. That is true to Asian languages in general and is probably why the asian languistic map is very fragmented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ala Posted January 9, 2004 at 11:25 PM Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 at 11:25 PM Does 白相 (White face) mean playing in Shanghaiese? That looks like the Japanese Kanji 面白 (Face White) which means interesting. yes, 白相 means to play in Shanghainese, from Tang Dynasty usage 孛相. 白 character often interchanged. A few other common COLLOQUIAL Tang Dynasty words still used in Shanghainese and other Wu dialects: 相打 fight 衣裳 clothes 着衣裳 to wear clothes 着棋 to play checkers, chess 面孔 face 温吞 lethargic 方便 easy (Mandarin loaned this from Wu recently) etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthbert Posted January 19, 2004 at 02:54 AM Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 at 02:54 AM I am shanghaiese.your research is very deeply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dodo Posted January 21, 2004 at 08:12 AM Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 at 08:12 AM no kidding, this is so interesting. reading written shanghainese is even more weird. are they going to make shanghainese pop songs? that will be cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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