有不有 - has anyone actually heard this?

[roddy]

We all learnt that in Chinese you make negatives with 不, except when the verb is 有, in which case you use 没。This is reinforced repeatedly when you try to buy train tickets and get told '没有', not ‘不有‘

And then today I heard 比较不有杂音, to describe something that is relatively static free. That inspired a bit of Google searching, which found a quarter of a million results for ‘不有‘ and almost twenty thousand for ‘有不有'. Now these are very small numbers in comparison with the '没‘alternatives, but the usage is out there. Sometimes it's as part of something fixed like 无所不有, or 不得不有, but there are still examples online like "mysql有不有复制服务器", "你有不有想过" and so on.

Now I'm sure this is still not 'accepted usage', and I'm naturally wary about taking the internet as any kind of model. But what I'm curious about is - has anyone actually heard this regularly? Is it in any way a generational / regional thing?

[magietao]

I am a native and simply heard those usage.

but 无所不有 is exactly an idiom in our chinese dictionary.

and i think idiom mustn't build in a regular grammar.

[HashiriKata]

I am a native and simply heard those usage.

这中文怎么说？

[magietao]

ask me?

我是一个中国人，很少听到那些用法。

sorry,i found an error in my sentence,"usage" must be"usages".

[roddy]

I know you very rarely hear them - question is, when do you hear them? Are people from the south more likely to use them? Old people? Young people? Uneducated people?

[HashiriKata]

Thank magietao for your prompt reply. I simply wanted to know precisely what you meant and didn't mean to pick on your typo. My subsequent questions are as Roddy's.

[magietao]

oh,I just mean that it is mistake.

If you hear it you can take it as a oral or a habit usage.

[xiaocai]

Never heard anyone around me uses "不有", if I've ever noticed. Probably its from the speakers (or writers) dialects. But I'm not sure people from which part of China will say in this way.

So my guess is, since to me "比较不有杂音" is a bit like Taiwan guoyu, its Taiwanese phrase.

[HashiriKata]

So my guess is, since to me "比较不有杂音" is a bit like Taiwan guoyu, its Taiwanese phrase.

A reasonable assumption, I guess . But since when have Taiwanese started using 简体字？？

Edit/ Addition:

I've got from the web this sentence "会发现这些学者的言论往往都不合 实际，无一不有闭门造车之嫌" and I think 无一不有 may be a fixed expression. What could "无一不有" possibly mean?

[roddy]

It's a double negative - not one of them doesn't have . . .

[semantic nuance]

So my guess is, since to me "比较不有杂音" is a bit like Taiwan guoyu, its Taiwanese phrase.

I am a native Chinese speaker living in Taiwan. I've never heard of that expression used in Taiwan.

To roddy:My guess is: was it possible that you heard the speaker saying it as "比较不(會)有杂音" in a quick and muffled way?

To HK: 无一不有 in your context means 'nothing is without.....'

By the way, another fixed idiom with 不有 juxtaposed is 無奇不有.

Hope it helps!

[roddy]

It's not impossible I misheard - but even if I did, there are still those examples online to explain

Uploading a clip so you can listen yourselves. The full piece is here but to be honest it's not that interesting. What is interesting is that when I play this to some native speakers they insist they can hear a 会, and I think you're on the right track - that it's not 不有, but 不会有 with the 会 omitted. However, I've slowed it down in Audacity and sent it to Skylee to listen to, and as far as I'm concerned the 会 just isn't there. Speaker's accent sounds southern to me, but I'm no good at distinguishing accents beyond very broad regional lines.

Anybody want to explain the 有不有's on the internet? Internet idiocy?

clip.wav

[xiaocai]

Roddy, the lady does speak in Taiwan accent.

And I think I can hear the "会" clearly. However, the "h" of "hui" seems to be droped here ,and it quite common to "eat" some of the initials when people rattle off the words.

[semantic nuance]

Roddy, the lady did speak 比较不會有杂音in both files you provided.

[roddy]

Yeah, I'm slowly coming to have to accept that:mrgreen:

Here's a clip of what you get if you ask a native speaker to clip out the 'hui'.

I'm not sure if this is something I hear regularly but just happened to pick up on this time because of the 不有 thing (nobody's explaining all those 有不有 examples, I note ), or if it's a southern thing I just haven't been exposed to. Hey ho, all part of the fun

clip3.wav

[semantic nuance]

Interesting! I googled 有不有 as you requested and read about 10 pages of the keyword 有不有. I found it is mostly used in Mainland China or in some buddhist articles. However, I did find a pattern of 有不有 is correct. The following quotes are from google:

這無關妳忙不忙、有不有錢、是不是請得起菲傭。

內容的部份很適合現在全家人一起閱讀，無論有不有錢，怎樣的禮物能夠代表心意，得到的 人能夠感恩及感念，這就能得到幸福與快樂的感覺，這是本很棒的故事書，覺得台灣有這樣 的作品真的是太棒了。

幸福最重要,有不有錢不是重點,重點是能不能一起吃苦

I guess the pattern listed is ok due to the pattern of ___+ 不 +______. (___ can be adjectives and verbs.) The above listed can be interchanged with 有沒有 when it means 'rich or poor'. However, when you want to ask people if they have money (with them), you can not say: 妳有不有錢? you should say 妳有沒有錢?

Another example of 有不有 is 有不有趣 as in 這個故事有不有趣啊? (Is this story interesting or not?)

Roddy, the h in your clip of hui is mute (clip3.wav). It is a bit like 'wei'. In Taiwan, when we say hui we usually say hui as it is.

hope it helps!

[in_lab]

I heard a hui. That clip was from a Princess Remy 黑米公主 podcast, if anyone was wondering. Taiwanese are less likely to use 不 and more likely to use 不會, compared to mainlanders, I think.

[magietao]

yeah,有不有趣 is often heard from people around me,but I didn't remember it yesterday.

and now I think it is used that because 有趣 is a fixed phrase.

[gato]

"有不有理" also seems possible.

[Mugi]

Can't answer the 有不有 usage on the Net - there seems to be a mix of Taiwanese and Mainlanders, northerners and southerners using the phrase...

But with regard to the first clip, the woman definitely says 不会, albeit merged. In Taiwanese (i.e. 闽南语), 不会 is "boe" (a merger of 无 "bo" and 会 "hoe"). "Boe" is often borrowed unadulterated into Taiwanese Mandarin, which is what it sounds like here.