先生 (xiān sheng)

Is there any difference in the sounds of the initial part of pinyin 'x' and 'sh' sounds - as in xiān sheng (先生)? I understand that 'x' is like 'shee', and sheng is she. Are these initial sounds the same, or in speaking the x should the lips be pulled back further back to the corners? Hope that makes some sense!

check out this site

http://www.sinosplice.com/lang/pronunciation/04/

It goes through all the consonant sounds of Mandarin, and should help

Thanks Ding Yiyi - quite a bit to take in! Certainly they are not the same, and some work required by me before I get anywhere near to getting it right. Thanks for the link!

This may not be relevant to you, but its easy to get stuck on a small part of learning the language while missing the big picture.

My Indonesian friends here sort of get by despite getting nearly all the tones wrong, zhi and zi mixed, and chi and ci mixed. But often, people can't understand what they say.

I get my tones right, know the pinyin rules well, but do pronounce sh and x as just about interchangable. My problem is lack of vocabulary. I'd much prefer to sit looking at diagrams of my throat and tongue, and pronounce "sh" and "x" over and over again, but it will make no difference to the amount I'm understood. I need to learn vocabulary.

Make sure you're concentrating on what's important to you - what will improve the level of understanding of what you say among the locals.

Having said that, learning should also be a rewarding experience. I spent a couple of hours recently trying to get the "xing" 行 sound correct, as a sort of "ssssshiyiieeeng" noise, and I sound really cool now

Back to shengci ...

I have always said it as sort of an s with a little touch of lisp and I have managed ok... so is sshian sheng...

Say the phrase "bless ye" letting the two words run together. That's the "xi" sound.

From Speak Mandarin.

I have been thinking about what you said for some time and I do not understand it at all why some of you think that the "x" sound is in some way similar to "shee" or "sh" in English.

To me "x" is a very flat sound (don't really know how to discribe it) without anything to do with the "h" in "sh". The tip of my tongue touches the base of my lower teeth when I pronounce it. This is what I've learnt from my Mandarin classes (Mandarin is not my mother tongue, so). But then it occurs to me that some people do pronounce it differently (think Jay Chou in his recent song 菊花台) and I am really confused. Am I wrong? Or is it a mainland / taiwan difference? Or is there a range of accepatable pronunciation for this "xi" sound? Would appreciate it if anyone can shed some light on this. Thanks.

Hmmm... Let me try. Xxxxxxx and Shhhhhhh.

Well, pronouncing x requires slightly pulled back lip cornors, a more closely put-together teeth (You can make this syllable even lock your upper and lower teech together, no problem. I tried ) and flat tongue with the tip touching the base (or even lower) of your lower teeth. (This suggests a small cavity between teech and tongue.)

On the other hand, sh requires slightly round lips with a little pout, a less closely put-together teeth and flat tongue with the tip, oppositely, sticking upward. (But not necessarily touching the base of upper teeth, and this suggests a small cavity between tongue and palate.)

Anyway, this is the best I can tell though. Oh right, if you can imitate the 'ch' sound in german word like 'ziemlich', you are getting close to 'x'.

Now it's my turn to have a go, but I'd like first to have a word of caution: explanations are often intended to be helpful and are therefore only approximate. So please take what I'm saying fairly flexibly (and imaginatively ).

Here we go:

Let's first assume we know how to pronounce /s/ ("sea") and /sh/ ("shore") in English. If we then assign number 1 for the position of the tip of our tongue for /s/, and number 3 for the position of the tip of our tongue for /sh/; then number 2 is for the Chinese /x/ in "xian" and number 4 for the Chinese /sh/ in "sheng". Now we've got: 1 (sea) 2 (xian) 3 (shore) 4 (sheng), in which 1 is when the tip of our tongue is at its foremost in the front of our mouth and 4 is when it's furthermost at the back relative to the others. For the reasons explained, we find that the sounds /x/ (=2) and /sh/ (=4) in "xiansheng" are different from the sounds /s/ (=1) and /sh/ (=3) in "seashore".

Look at it differently:

The /x/ and the /sh/ in Chinese are in fact the same sound, and let's call this sound an abstract /S/. The pronunciation of /S/ in practice is modified by what follows it: the tip of the tongue will be pulled forward to the front, if it's accompanied by a front vowel such as /i/ or /ü/, and the /S/ in such an environment is the Chinese /x/; the tip of tongue otherwise stays in the back position when /S/ is accompanied by any other vowels (which are all non-front vowels), and the /S/ in such environments is the Chinese /sh/. For the reasons explained, you'll find the Chinese /x/ and /sh/ never occur in the same environments. Beginning learners tend to have problems in prouncing /x/ normally because they don't pay enough attention to the /i/ or /ü/ element that is buried in it. (Note: The vowels /i/ and /ü/ as mentioned here are intended to refer to the sounds and not to the letters. The Chinese "shi" therefore doesn't contain the sound /i/, but the Chinese "xue" on the other hand carries in it the sound /ü/.)

Oh right, if you can imitate the 'ch' sound in german word like 'ziemlich', you are getting close to 'x'

Ding Yiyi's suggestion will give you the best description. Also, Skylee gives an excellent bit of advice for /x/:

The tip of my tongue touches the base of my lower teeth when I pronounce it.

/x/ uses the blade of the tongue to make its sound. What Skylee suggests isn't a required part of the sound, but it ensures that you use the blade of your tongue.

The part of your mouth that you place the blade of your tongue near to pronounce /x/ is uncommon, so much so that its symbol does not appear on IPA charts, so this may be a difficult concept to grasp at first. Think about where you pronounce the letter /t/. The place where you pronounce /x/ is juuuuuuuuuust behind that. You should get a brighter version of the English sh.

The Chinese /sh/ is a bit easier to envision. First, curl your tongue back and just make a sound like the English sh against the roof of your mouth. This will be darker than the English sh.

Hope this helps.

if your a native english speaker i think my explanation is easier to understand the difference between x and sh.

(Just examples, i dunno if they are actual chinese characters)

xia

shia

Sounds the same. Now replace the "x" with "hs"

hsia

shia

Native english speakers can easily pronounce the two. The "HS" forces the tongue to lay more flat against the top of the mouth. The "SH" forces the tongue to a more angular position (almost to the position of whistling.) I hope this helps.