Latinxua

Following Roddy's suggestion I start a new thread to continue an off-topic discussion in the thread http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/5-how-many-characters-do-you-know539

I believe the use of "q" in pinyin traces back to the input of the Russians into the system.

You probably have in mind the latinxua (拉丁化) romanisation system, which was originally developed in the Soviet Union. The writer Lu Xun and the erstwhile leader of the Communist Party Qu Qiubai were the best-known advocates of the system, which was seen at the time as a replacement for Chinese characters, part of the old culture that needed to be abandoned for the sake of progress.

I also thought that q could come from latinxua, but it doesn't. Pinyin.info has some original documentation of the system -> http://www.pinyin.info/romanization/sinwenz/index.html

The letters used can be seen at -> http://www.pinyin.info/romanization/sinwenz/pp34to34b.html

Note that latinxua first introduced the use of c, z, ch and zh as they are used in hanyu pinyin, but q was not used. The syllables ji, ju, qi, qu, etc. were represented by using g and k: gi, gy, ki, ky, etc. which is fair enough since the j and q sounds never occur with the same vowels as g and k. The system basically treated these sounds as allophones of those phonemes, which may reflect an older style of pronunciation (as in the Peking and Tao Te King romanisations). BTW, this makes me wonder if Qu Qiubai himself ever wrote his name as "Ky Kiubai".

Even more curious is the fact that the letter x was used for both the hanyu pinyin h and x, so xa, xu corresponds to pinyin ha, hu whereas xi, xy correspond to xi, xu. This again may reflect an older or regional style of pronunciation (which may explain the usual Chinese transcriptions of foreign names with a "hi" syllable, like "Hillary"). In standard putonghua I would regard the pinyin x as an allophone of either s or sh rather than h.

Something I like about the system is the fact that they don't use different consonants for the q, j and x, which aren't real phonemes, while they represent the vowels in a consistent way: pinyin ü is consistently represented as y, so pinyin yu, lü, xu are y, ly, xy, and i is always the full vowel sound as in bi, pi, di, ti, while the hanyu pinyin syllables si, shi, zi, zhi, ci, chi, ri are simply s, sh, z, zh, c, ch and rh. In this respect, the system was much better than hanyu pinyin.

A well-known characteristic of the system is the fact that it didn't use marks for the four tones based on the arguable idea that context was enough to know which was which.

Interesting, thanks. I don't have much to comment besides my opinion that unlike many people, I think pinyin is perfect as it is now, there is no need to reform this system itself, I only have trouble with inputting some tonemarks in MS applications and HTML web pages.

Pinyin has letters corresponding to just one sound, there is no ambiguity as far as the pronunciation is concerned for both consonants and vowels. I don't agree with opinions to change Qing to Ching or Ch'ing or Mei to May or something like that.

Pinyin has letters corresponding to just one sound, there is no ambiguity as far as the pronunciation is concerned for both consonants and vowels

Are you sure you're not being influenced by hanyu pinyin when you say that? For example, it is a fact that pinyin uses "i" and "u" in an ambiguous way. The previous consonant in the syllable resolves the ambiguity, of course, but that makes the system complicated rather than simple.

I think people's perceptions of Chinese phonetics are usually influenced by the transcription system they have learned. For example, a student who knows only hanyu pinyin will think that the difference between the syllables chu and qu is fundamentally a difference in consonants, and put down the different articulation of the vowels to the effect of the different consonants. On the other hand, a student that has learned Chinese using Wade-Giles will think that the fundamental difference between the syllables ch'u and ch'ü is in the vowel, and if anyone points out that the phonetic characteristics of the consonant are a tad different, they will put it down to the influence of the front vowel, which somehow pushes forward the articulation of what is in essence the same consonant. I think this second interpretation is more natural. That's why I disagree with you about your view of hanyu pinyin. In my opinion, it does NOT represent the most natural phonemic system of Mandarin. I could point out other problems for foreign learners, like the fact that "you", "wei" and "wen" become "iu", "ui" and "un" after a consonant, for example.

By the way, learning other systems of romanisation can help you gain some insight in the phonetics of Mandarin. It is wrong to use hanyu pinyin as the yardstick to compare other systems with, as if any deviation from it would reveal an error. Don't forget that, unlike the Wade-Giles or Yale systems, it was devised a system to replace Chinese characters, not as a help for foreigners. Hanyu pinyin has a lot of flaws, especially for foreign learners of the language. You'd be surprised how many students of Chinese I've come across who pronounce shi as "shee" and qu as "choo", not realising that those "i" and "u" have a different value from the ones in, say, bi and bu.

I don't intend to say that hanyu pinyin should be scrapped. It is the system of romanisation I am most familiar with, and it the standard system used by most people. But that doesn't mean that it is perfect, and there's nothing wrong in commenting on its shortcomings and pitfalls.

You'd be surprised how many students of Chinese I've come across who pronounce shi as "shee" and qu as "choo", not realising that those "i" and "u" have a different value from the ones in, say, bi and bu.

I've experienced the same thing with some people, but I always just attributed it to them learning the pronounciation incorrectly from the teacher. Granted, I don't have any experience with any romanisation systems other than hanyu pinyin and Wade-Giles (of which I am not at all fond), but it seems to me the key is to learn the correct pronounciation with the corresponding hanyu pinyin romanisation (or any other romanistation system, for that matter).

I am partial to the hanyu pinyin because it is so widely used (i.e. dictionaries, typing programs, etc.). I don't know if this question belongs in this thread (if not, I will be happy to start a new one):

Does anyone know of dictionaries or typing programs that use a romanisation systems other than hanyu pinyin?

like the fact that "you", "wei" and "wen" become "iu", "ui" and "un" after a consonant, for example.

That is the rule of "spelling". When the initial sound is "i" or "u", it must be replaced by "y" or "w" in Hanyu Pinyin.

Does anyone know of dictionaries or typing programs that use a romanisation systems other than hanyu pinyin?

Dictionaries? Oh, lots of them -- though few within the last 20 years. Y.R. Chao's excellent dictionary, for example, is in Gwoyeu Romatzyh, which is not surprising given that he's the originator of that system. The recent, magnificent Grand Ricci Chinese-French dictionary is an exception, being put out in Wade-Giles; but it concentrates on old usage, so the choice of Wade-Giles is not inappropriate.

As for character-input romanization methods, my Taiwan Windows is equipped with entry for MPS2 and Tongyong Pinyin, in addition to Hanyu Pinyin. Zhuyin input is common in Taiwan, though of course it's not a romanization system.

The q and x of Hanyu Pinyin don't come from Russian -- nor does zh, which is sometimes also mentioned. Interestingly, q and x can both be found in the earliest Chinese romanization system: the one by the Jesuit Matteo Ricci.

Ricci used x for some sh-like sounds -- in other words much the same as it is used in Hanyu Pinyin. But I don't think too much should be made of the connection.