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Ian_Lee

Shared last names

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nnt
No I can't read it (the acrobat reader in this machine does not support korean or japanese fonts and I am not allowed to download anything.)'].

You can make a Google search using 李 "The initial law" as criteria and read the result "as HTML" (the result is converted from pdf to HTML)

So when "ㄹ/L" appears in the initial position it becomes "ㄴ/N"' date=' but if it is followed by an "|/I" it becomes silent (i.e. "ㅇ"). Since Korean no longer use Chinese characters, and the hangul they write has to reflect how they speak, so 李 has turned from "리" to "이". Am I right?

[/quote']

The rules (and laws!) are quite complicated. The web-page I have given provides good examples and explanations:

http://www.nii.ac.jp/publications/CJK-WS/2-11Lee.pdf.

as HTML gives:

Page 1

Comparative Analysis of Authority Data KI Min-do & LEE Jae-sunThe National

Library of Korea1.

Korean Names Headings for Koreans' names are recorded in Hangul and

forenames and surnames put together with no distinction. It is based on

regulations of Korean names,'Hangul Punctuation Law' (Ministry of Education,

1988). Korean language has the 'initial law' which pronounces differently from its

original pronunciation in the case of starting personal names (forenames or

surnames) with ‘ㄴ' or ’ㄹ'. When starting with ‘ㄴ' or ’ㄹ', mostly ‘ㄹ’ is recorded

by ‘ㅇ', or ’ㄴ' by ’ㅇ'. Headings forKorean names are assigned only when literary

names, pen names, nicknames,Christian names, or other languages can be

found from the material

No. 1 is ‘고은(Go Eun)’. 고은is a pen name. His real name is 은태(Go,Eun-tae).

His well-known pen name is ‘고은’ rather than his real name ‘고은태’. So we

adapt ‘고은’ as a established heading. 일초(一超, Il, Cho) is his Buddist name.So

his real name and Buddist name recorded as a see from tracing field(400).

TheTag 100 is authorized from 한국현대문인대사전(Korean contemporary

writers dictionary). So it is recorded in the Tag 670. In addition, he is a poet, a

novelist,and a critic. So these information is recorded as the notes in the tag

678. The tag678 is a summary notes which summarize the essential

biographical, historical, orother information about the 100, 110, 111 headings in

an established heading record.

No. 2 is 김구(Gim Goo), whose former name was 김창수(Kim Chang-soo).김구is

the most-known name. So 김구was adapted as a heading. In this case, thefirst

literary name(號) is ‘연하(蓮下)’. ‘백범(白凡)’ is the second literaryname(號). 김창

암(金昌巖) is his childhood name. 원종(圓宗) is his buddist name.So these other

names are recorded in the tag 400 as a see reference from tracing.In the case of

No. 3, 김대중(Gim Dae-joong) is selected as a heading(100) and“한국, 대통령” is

recorded in Field 510(See Also Reference), “대통령”(sub-division) under “한국”

(cooperate author). The reason is that he published the book personally, not as a

president of Korea. When the president publishes a book officially as a

president, “한국, 대통령” is recorded in Field 110.

No. 14 is 이광수(李光洙). The original pronunciation of family name “李”

is“리(lee)”. Actually, it is pronounced as “이(yi)” because of “The Initial Law.” His

Japanese name “香山光郞,” it is a Hangul expression of Japanese pronunciation

“가야마미쓰로,” and Romanized expression of Japanese pronunciation

“Kayama,Mitsuro” are recorded as a See Reference Entry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 2

22. Japanese Names Headings for Japanese' names are recorded in Hangul by

Korean pronunciation,based on the regulations of Japanese names in ‘the

Foreign Language Punctuation Law' in which there are one blank between

forenames and surnames with no comma. When Chinese scripts of Japanese

names in reference entry are transcribed by Korean pronunciation, forenames

and surnames put together with no distinction. 'Initial Law' will not be applied

when transcribing by Japanese pronunciation of Chinese scripts. But it will be

applied as the same as Korean names when recording by Korean pronunciation.

For the Romanized names, the last name and the given name are separated by

comma.

No. 3 is 나쓰메소세키(夏目漱石). Japanese pronunciation of Kanji can be written

in several ways in Hangul. ‘夏目’ can be “나쓰메” or “나츠메,” and 金之助can be “

긴노스케” and “킨노스케.”No. 6 is 카와바타야스나리(川端康成). For the

Romanized names, the last name and the given name are separated by comma

like a western name.

3. Chinese Names Headings for Chinese' names are transcribed by Korean

pronunciation of Chinese letters. But foreign names are followed by international

customs that transcribe by its own language pronunciation and 'Foreign

Language Transcription Rule' for Chinese names which is transcribed in Hangul

by pronouncing it in Chinese.Chinese forenames and surnames put together with

no distinction when transcribing in Korean.

'The Initial Law' will not be applied when transcribing by Chinese pronunciation

like Japanese names. But it will be applied when the Chinese name are record

by Korean pronunciation.

No.2. 파김, Hangul expression of Korean pronunciation of 巴金is recorded as an

established heading.

“바진,” Hangul expression of Chinese pronunciation of巴 金; its romanization

“Pa, Chin”;

“이 대 감,” Hangul expression of Korean pronunciation of real name 李帶甘;

and “리페이칸,” Hangul expression of Chinese pronunciation of real name 李帶甘

are recorded as reference entries.

In the case of“이대감.,” “李” is expressed as “이” in Hangul because the Initial

Law is applied. But in case of “리페이칸,” the Initial Law is not applied because

the Hangul expression is of Chinese pronunciation..

No. 12 is 모택동(毛澤東). The description rule for the Chinese names has been

changed in March 2001. Hangul expression of Chinese pronunciation will be the

established heading instead of the former established heading, Hangul

expression of Korean pronunciation of the Chinese name.

For example, following the new rule,the established heading “모택동,” Hangul

expression of Korean pronunciation of 毛澤東, will be changed into “마오쩌둥,”

Hangul expression of Chinese pronunciationof 毛 澤 東. And additionally

speaking, Romanized expressions of Chinese pronunciation “Mao, Tse-tung” and

“Mao, Zedong” are recorded as a reference entries.

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skylee
"There are around a dozen two-syllable surnames include:

Hwangbo (황보; 皇甫)

Seon-u (선우; 鮮于)

Jegal (제갈; 諸葛)

Seomun (서문; 西門)

Dokgo (독고; 獨孤)

Sagong (사공; 司空)

Namgung (남궁; 南宮)

"

interesting lol' date=' these two syllable surnames disappeared in China and are still found in Korea.[/quote']

Ah it does not seem so. I always envy those characters in martial arts novels who have these interesting double-surnames 複姓 (well nothing can be more boring than 李). So I've done a little search and found this and this -

据统计,1994年上海共有29个复姓,依人数多少排列如下:

( 1)欧阳( 2)诸葛( 3)司徒( 4)端木

( 5)上官( 6)闻人( 7)皇甫( 8)申屠

( 9)司马(10)尉迟(11)单于(12)慕容

(13)淳于(14)陆费(15)令狐(16)独孤

(17)西门(18)闾丘(19)字文(20)公冶

(21)澹台(22)闾邱(23)完颜(24)第五

(25)完完(26)侍其(27)轩辕(28)东方

(29)明哲

上海的复姓中,有“中华第一姓”一一轩辕。相传轩辕氏即因黄帝居住在轩辕谷(今河南新郑县西北),他的其中一个儿子即以地为姓,这是一个古老的家族,有5000年了,现今已十分罕见。

Anyone knows any 令狐, 東方, 慕容, 獨孤, please introduce them to me. :lol:

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Quest
Anyone knows any 令狐, 東方, 慕容, 獨孤, please introduce them to me.

I agree, those are coolest haha

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Ian_Lee

完颜 was the royal family name of the Jin Dynasty founded by the Jurchens that was destroyed by Kublai Khan in about A.D. 1200 So their royal family still has some descendants?

慕容 was the royal family name of those Yin kingdoms founded by the Xianbe during the 4th and 5th century. So they still have descendants?

上官 & 欧阳 & 司徒 are very common.

But I never heard of someone with last name "Fifth" -- 第五

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Ian_Lee

Other than Koreans and Vietnamese, who else shares same last names with Han Chinese?

Some Japanese do.

Lin and Hayashi shares with the common character.

Even though most Japanese last names have something related to the nature, I always suspect that those names actually imply how those clans were "created".

Tanaka probably means that their ancestors made out in the rice field, Takahashi may mean that their ancestors made out on high bridge, Inoue means that their ancestors made out above the water well.......and so and so.

Of course, their most freaking last name is the one related to ghost & grave.

Anyhow, one Japanese last name is very popular in Mainland China and Taiwan -- Nakayama (Zhongshan) -- the last name that Sun Yat Sen adopted to deceive Chinese government when he was in exile in Japan. (How come nobody accuse him as traitor on such act?)

But now there are so many Zhongshan Boulevards, Zhongshan Memorial Hall,......etc in both Mainland and Taiwan.

Even Sun's native town has changed its name to Zhongshan.

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Xuan Yuan

Many of Korean and Japanese clans originated in China. I know some Japanese family claim to descend from Han emperors and Cao Cao. One Korean president, Lu xxxxx even pay a homage to his ancestor shrine when visiting China. Many China also fled to Korea when Manchus came.

But I never heard of someone with last name "Fifth" -- 第五

Actually besides 第五,there are also seven similar names starting from 第一 to 第八. They came from the same ancestor, the last king of Qi. When Qi was conquered by Qin ShiHuang, he ordered the king's eight sons to adopt a new last name so their family would not be strong enough to challenge his rule. The eight son made their new surnames from 第一 to 第八. So it is a quite ancient name.

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Ian_Lee

Xuan Yuan:

Actually former Filipino President Aquino had also visited her hometown in Fujian to pay homage to her ancestors.

I have no doubt that a lot of clans in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand,....etc have their roots in China.

Some act really open though. The Thai Royal Family never denied that they got Chinese blood in their lineage.

But some countries like Korea and Vietnam are very sensitive about this issue.

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nnt

Sharing last names does not necessarily means being related.

Last names can be changed by adoption (one famous example is Cao Cao's family), by imperial favour (Guo2 xing4 國姓, as for Koxinga), and many more historical reasons.

In Vietnam, a Nguyễn 阮 may have had a Lý 李 ancestor who had been forced to change his last name when the Trần 陳 took over and exterminated the Lýs.

Nguyễn Huệ (阮惠), a leader of the peasant uprising in the 18th century was initially a Hồ (胡), and had common ancestors with Hồ quý Ly 胡季犛 (see my previous answers). He and his brothers changed his last name to Nguyễn 阮 because at that time, Vietnam was divided into two principalities (the North ruled by the Trịnh 鄭, the South ruled by the Nguyễn 阮), and that move made their insurrection appear more legitimate in the South.

So the Nguyễn 阮 in Vietnam may be more related to Lý 李 or Hồ 胡, than with the Ruan 阮 in China.

The only way to know the exact relations between two people sharing the same name is to check their family records (族谱 or 家谱), if these records still exist.

Of course, many Vietnamese have Chinese ancestors (if we only take into account the period beginning in 939...), but the actual relations cannot be guessed just by knowing the last names.

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Quest

nnt, same thing is true everywhere. you can never be sure, thats all. we say 五百年前是一家 to people with the same last names.

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Tei
Anyone knows any 令狐, 東方, 慕容, 獨孤, please introduce them to me.

Why? Maybe I'm not understanding something.

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Ian_Lee

In the part of US I live, there are also many Chinese with double surnames.

I opened the phone book and found the last names Ah-Ching, Ah-Chong and Ah-Choy.

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wow

Skylee wrote: “nnt, thanks for the very interesting story. Too bad the Lýs did not become the emperor in Korea. THAT would be even more interesting. ”

I've heard that a south-korean president is descendant of Lý Long Tường

If I remember well his name is Ly Thua Van (in vietnamese).

Wow

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nnt
I've heard that a south-korean president is descendant of Lý Long Tường

If I remember well his name is Ly Thua Van (in vietnamese).

Syngman Rhee 李 承晩 Lý Thừa Vãn

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Ian_Lee

According to the writer of this article, Vietnamese got Chinese surnames owing to the constant infusion and integration of Chinese blood:

http://www.vny2k.net/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese3.htm

_______________________________

In a later development during the span of one thousand years of Chinese domination of Vietnam before her independence from China in 936 AD, more Chinese immigrants, just like their predecessors, generally, had been of a mixture of poor peasants fleeing from ravaging wars and hunger back in their homeland, exhausted long-march soldiers on endlessly conquering and pacifying missions, and a great number of disgraced political exiles along with their accompanied family purged and punished by temperamental dynasties that they had served.

Many of them, probably mostly men, had chosen to settle in today's Vietnam's territories and they might have been married into Vietnamese families and they never returned to their homeland. Over the years and many generations later many of them had been totally assimilated into the distinct Vietnamese society and they then had emerged within the dominant ethnic group later identified as "Kinh", or Vietnamese. At the same time, those immigrants had brought along with them their own dialects which continued infiltrating fresh colloquial lexicons into the local language in their new resettlements. This assimilation process must have been occurring rather slowly and gradually.

On becoming a majority, the new racially mixed population later called themselves "NgườiKinh" (literally meaning "the metropolitans"), whose dominant presence and establishments along the eastern coastline had further pushed and displaced aborigine and indegenous peoples, believed to speak Mon-Khmer languages, among other languages of Daic origin spoken by other ethnic groups living in the northern parts of today's Vietnam, farther into remote western mountainous regions who later on became minorities in their own land. (In the present time clashes between ethnic groups of Khmer descent and Vietnamese, represented by their government, have driven many of those people out of their land into Cambodia.) It is not hard to understand that if those ethnic groups had been of the same anthropological origin as that of "Vietnamese", they might not have been badly treated that way while the much later distinct Chinese ethnic immigrants have been treated fairly well, which must have been a much later development.

This rather controversal hypothesis of the Chinese racial integration into the Vietnamese society, where peoples of the already mixture of ancient Yuè, or BáchViệt, former Chinese immigrants, and aborigine right from ancient times had been living, helps explain why all contemporary Vietnamese carry Chinese surnames and have physical traits much more like Chinese than those of the indigenous people or of peoples of Polynesian and Malay descent. In addition, that is also the reason why place names bear all the names of those places in China where those earlier settlers have lived, eg., Hànam 'Henan', Hàbắc 'Hebei', Sơntây 'Shanxi', Hànội 'Henei', Tháinguyên 'Taiyuan', Quảngnam (or 'Guangnan' as opposed to Guangdong and Guangxi), Bắcninh or Tâyninh (or 'Beining' and "Xining" as opposed to Nanning), and so on, just like the English geographical names in existence in the US east coast.

In the case of Vietnam, while most previous Chinese immigrants have successfully blended themselves into the general local population, many of the more recent ones from Guangdong (Canton), Fujian (Fukien), and parts of other China's southern provinces who had migrated to Vietnam later for the last past five hundred years since the fall of the Chinese Ming Dynasty might have still remained distinctively Chinese and have been identified as of several different Chinese ethnic groups, namely the "Minhhương" (descendants of the Ming's subjects), Cantonese, Hakka, Chaozhou (Tcheochow), Hainanese, and Fukienese. For a large majority of these later groups, many of them might also have already fully absorbed into Vietnamese society. Just ask a Vietnamese, chances are that three or four out of ten persons will be still able to tell you how they bear a Vietnamese version of their Chinese last names.

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Heyheyhey

My last name is Vietnamese: Tran. But we speak the northern dialect so "Tr" is pronounced as "Ch" and it is pronounced more like "Chan."

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盤古
"There are around a dozen two-syllable surnames include:

Hwangbo (황보; 皇甫)

Seon-u (선우; 鮮于)

Jegal (제갈; 諸葛)

Seomun (서문; 西門)

Dokgo (독고; 獨孤)

Sagong (사공; 司空)

Namgung (남궁; 南宮)

"

interesting lol' date=' these two syllable surnames disappeared in China and are still found in Korea.[/quote']

Double-syllable surnames have NOT disappeared in China. There are still plenty Chinese with double-syllable surnames such as 歐陽 / 欧阳 Ouyang for example. I personally knew tow people with the surname 歐陽 / 欧阳 Ouyang in my life.

Also, Koreans with double-syllable surnames are also quite rare. I've only met one Korean with the surname 南宮 남궁 Namgung before.

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Quest
Double-syllable surnames have NOT disappeared in China. There are still plenty Chinese with double-syllable surnames such as 歐陽 / 欧阳 Ouyang for example. I personally knew tow people with the surname 歐陽 / 欧阳 Ouyang in my life.

I did not say all have disappeared, just the ones I quoted. And, by disappear I mean they might still exist somewhere but you really have to put in effort to find them.

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