HELP: Advice needed for an IUP-level program - other possibilities?

[Jive Turkey]

If you're interested in IUP, I would recommend reading the comparison of IUP and Taiwan's ICLP in the link below:

http://www.blakemorefoundation.org/Compare.pdf

This guy basically says that IUP hasn't really developed any of its own materials since it was moved to Beijing from Taiwan and that IUP's teachers are pretty young and inexperienced. That pretty much matches what a friend of mine who studied at IUP said about the program.

[amandagmu]

Thank you for posting that report! I can't even express how much I appreciate it.

~Amanda

[mrtoga]

Hey Amanda,

I could probably arrange something for you, if I knew more precisely what your requirements (objectives) are. Finding a modern history teacher with clear putonghua and a few hours free every day would not be terribly difficult. Of course this would not carry any credit, if that is one of the key criteria for you.

Send me an email if interested!

[gato]

The tuition for ICLP in Taipei is actually cheaper than IUP Tsinghua's in Beijing: ICLP's US$11100 for three quarters vs. IUP's US$13000 for two semesters.

Does anyone know what the tuition money goes towards in these programs? Since teachers are probably paid a lot more in Taipei than in Beijing, one would have expected that the Taipei program would cost more, not less. This is especially curious because from the report posted by Jive Turkey above, it seems the Taipei teachers are more experienced than the Beijing ones.

From an earlier thread on American-organized language program in China, it seems that their higher tuition largely goes toward expenses that are not teaching-related.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=34293#post34293

american programs in China

By the way, IUP is looking to hire a new field director. The list of responsibilities seem quite broad ("maintenance of physical site/equipment" and "curriculum development"?).

http://sinolaw.typepad.com/chinese_law_and_politics_/2007/04/position_field_.html

The Field Director oversees all on-site aspects of an advanced, intensive Mandarin language program located at Tsinghua University in Beijing.

Responsibilities include faculty and staff management; payroll and budgeting; maintenance of physical site/equipment; student advising; student safety; curriculum development; host university relations; and daily communication with IUP’s administrative headquarters at UC Berkeley.

Candidates should possess a PhD (or equivalent practical experience) and have a strong interest in language pedagogy/practice. Experience teaching Chinese and managing an academic program is preferred. Native-level fluency in Mandarin is a must. Competitive salary and benefits (salary follows Academic Coordinator II series at UC). Basic travel expenses and housing covered by IUP.

Application instructions and deadline: Deadline for receipt of applications is May 25, 2007.

[Jamoldo]

Gato and all, I know a Harvard PHD student who's currently at IUP (she reccomended CET to me a few years back) and she used to rave about how great IUP was. I asked her for some more opinions this time around since I was considering applying and this is what she said:

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"Although by relative standards it is still the "best" language program in Beijing as far as student-teacher ratio is concerned, it is so expensive, poorly administrated and currently in such a state of flux and disorder that I strongly recommend you apply for the ICLP program in Taiwan instead, especially if just doing a summer course. (ICLP is the original program from which IUP sprung, after the teacher who wrote the textbooks left the program to start her own. They still use the same textbooks, but with all the interesting politically-themed essays left in, and all their teachers have much more experience than IUP's teachers. Fully half of IUP's teachers have little to no previous experience teaching foreign students.) Frankly, IUP positions itself as being entirely badass, and the workload is heavy, but the program is nowhere near what it used to be and is now just coasting on its reputation. If you're serious about your language learning, apply for the program in Taiwan instead. Alternatively, the Princeton-in-Beijing program is another good one for summer language learning - it is essentially Chinese bootcamp, and the workload there is HUGE. You won't enjoy much of it, but your Chinese will come out with dramatic improvements at the end."

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Of course, the thing is that her level has obviously improved immensely between her time at IUP before and her time now. But what she said sounds very pessimisstic...

I won't take her word as gospel, but it definitely influences my thoughts pretty strongly regarding IUP.

Also with regards to ICLP, do people know if they use simplified or traditional characters there? It's based in Taiwan but no one really used traditional anymore...

[gato]

Thanks, Jamoldo. Your friend confirmed the comparison of IUP v. ICLP mentioned by Jive Turkey above. That comparison was done in July 2005. It seems that IUP has not improved in the last two years. The teachers are still inexperienced (did teachers leave?) and the administration still sloppy. And based on the ad I mentioned, it looks like they are currently missing a field director. The 2005 comparison mentioned that IUP is still worth considering if one wants to work on speaking/listening and reading modern Chinese, but ICLP would be a much better option if one needs to do any work on classical Chinese (which is a must for academics).

ICLP Taipei probably does use traditional instead of simplified. But if your Chinese gets advanced enough, you should learn both anyway. The ICLP teachers, I'm sure, know at least how to read both.

But I'm still curious why ICLP in Taipei is cheaper? Since teachers are paid more in Taipei, it must be IUP's higher administrative costs.

CET (at least in Harbin) sounds like better run than IUP:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=43081#post43081

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/1597-marriage-proposals-in-chinese7&highlight=harbin

Jomoldo, are you currently doing CET?

[Jamoldo]

Gato, I'm currently studying at Beijing Normal University, and I'm happy. It's all about repetition which can get annoying, but its cheap (financially) in every sense of the word (tuition, lodging etc), and its at a real Chinese university. Despite the fact that I might not learn as much in class, and teaching methods may not be innovative, I also pay a lot less, and can learn just as much spoken if I decide to dig in and meet some Chinese students or hang out with students who do not speak English. They also give a fair amount of homework at BNU since they take teaching foreigners Chinese seriously. At a place like CET/IUP they'll force you to speak Chinese whereas here its much more self commitment and self discipline. Lots of people here have a lot of complaints regarding BNU (ones common with foreigners regarding Chinese universities), but I just don't mind them. It's a lot of cultural differences and red tape, but hey, what can you do? I'm thinking of applying to IUP/ICLP/PiB next summer before the Olympics and right before beginning a job/looking for work.

IUP might be better for me for a number of reasons actually. First, my Chinese level isn't great and I don't plan on doing graduate work with Chinese. I would be the equivalent of a second year student right now at least characterwise since I've studied here at BNU for about 7 months. I'm studying Chinese in order to start a career/do business in this part of the world, and that requires modern Chinese and preferably, a business Chinese class (which I hear IUP offers, BNU does too and I'll take it next year, but I don't know if ICLP does.). I'd love to take something about politics, which is avoided quite a bit in China, so I guess ICLP would be better equipped for that.

Why is ICLP cheaper? Easy. Go to ICLP's page and you will note that housing IS NOT included with the tuition, whereas it is with IUP. As for CET, its just all around expensive. Really expensive. I did CET Beijing in the summer of 2005 as an intro to Chinese and it was fantastic; the emphasis was on speaking and I improved quite a bit (it's hard not too if you cna only say ni hao when you start). I applied to CET Beijing again this past fall and while I got in, they did not offer me financial aid, so I had to say no. This also pretty much guaranteed that I won't apply for the program in Harbin in the future either.

[adrianlondon]

It's based in Taiwan but no one really used traditional anymore

Everyone in Taiwan does! And there aren't many signs in Pinyin, either. However, as a city comparison, although I loved my time in Beijing it felt like a theme park. The "China Experience" in Beijing, carefully managed by the government. Taipei, on the other hand, is the real deal. Mad, noisy, hectic, fun. For initial studying, I think Beijing's better as it's more relaxed and easy to manage.

Don't worry too much about traditional charatcers. You've studied quite a while at BNU now to know the basic characters. Brush up on some of the rules used to simplify characters, learn and get irritated by the complexity of "simple" characters like 个 / 個, and just go for it. It makes a nice change.

[gato]

Why is ICLP cheaper? Easy. Go to ICLP's page and you will note that housing IS NOT included with the tuition, whereas it is with IUP.

Are you sure? The $13000 annual fee apparently does not include housing.

See http://ieas.berkeley.edu/iup/fees.html

Other expenses not included in the attendance fees are airfare, housing, textbooks, personal allowance for food, local transportation, etc. (approximately US $575/month).

I'd love to take something about politics, which is avoided quite a bit in China, so I guess ICLP would be better equipped for that.

I guess you'll have to make some Chinese friends. Try to find some Party members. They should know their politics pretty well. Hehe.

[venture160]

IUP is currently in the process of hiring a new field director, which could hopefully turn things around. If they brought on board more experienced professors and improved the administrative side of things I would highly consider enrolling. That being said, CET if it can be paid for is very well run and has been in Harbin since 1988. Their relationship with the university is very good. I am biased though, I spent three semesters in Harbin with CET Harbin

I think with the rapid expansion of US based university programs we should see a IUP like competitor sprout up within the next 5 years. CET has been trying to do that with their Harbin program as they offer a special track for graduate students and professionals but the cost and location have made this process a slow one.

Maybe PIB and ACC will start offering 5th and 6th year levels? Who knows but there is certainly demand out there. I think what happens is most students with a high level of Chinese either go for employment or enroll at SAIS Nanjing.

While I was at CET Harbin there was also another student who had just finished a fall semester at IUP. He said that on the language side IUP had more homework and the professors were a bit more on the rigid side(At CET Harbin we averaged 4 hours of homework a day plus 30-80 new words a day). He didn't say one was better than the other, but liked Harbin as it allows you to do guided research in Chinese, something IUP does not, furthermore at IUP its easy to get into the wudaokou/lush life and forget about studying.

[Jamoldo]

Adrian, there is no way I'm going to be learning traditional now. I just don't have the drive for it.

Gato, thanks for pointing out my mistake with regards to housing. All I can say is: oops! As for learning politics, there are plenty of books around, I know a guy here who's in my level and while he might not know the word for "desk" or tree" he can certainly say "thermonuclear weapon" or "neo-liberalism" I think. I'm mostly into business and I dont think I'll have a problem with finding business Chinese language classes. They have some at BNU which I will take in addition to maybe auditing some Economics classes just to practice my listening and maybe pick up some other words. As for party members, it would be great to meet some, but I'm sure I'd be thrown in Gitmo in the US as a suspected spy/terrorist or something idiotic like that given my ethnicity (parents of Indian origin and Muslim, though I'm not a strict one by any means, Adrian can vouch for that).

venture, you make some fine points that I can't disagree with. As great as CET may be however, they are not generous with financial aid, it has some bureaucratic issues and its just too expensive for most. Wudaokou/Lush is very nice but I make sure to limit myself to small doses, though korean bbq tastes great!

[adrianlondon]

Wudaokou/Lush is very nice but I make sure to limit myself to small doses

At the end of the day, most of us who are/were in China studying Mandarin aren't 15 years old with loads of teachers pressuring us to study, parents checking we're doing our homework, or particularly hard exams.

Although some schools are better than others (which is which depends on your personal preferences; I loved BNU), it really comes down to your own willpower and dedication.

I self-studied before coming to China so I wasn't in the beginner's class, and worked relatively hard during the single semester I was there. I improved quite a lot. I could have done more, I could have stayed on and done another semester, but I was only there for fun. And I loved it.

Jamoldo - you're very dedicated to language learning. You're doing well and will continue to do so; it's not where you study that's so important. I think you'll do fine anywhere within reason - your priority, I guess, is cost.

[gato]

As for party members, it would be great to meet some,

Since the Party works on a 精英 (people's vanguard/elite) system, the better the school, the higher the percentage of party members, I think. Since BNU is a fairly highly ranked school, probably a fairly high percentage of students are party members, particularly among grad students and even more in majors that target government service.

They have some at BNU which I will take in addition to maybe auditing some Economics classes just to practice my listening and maybe pick up some other words.

If you can read newspapers, I'd recommend 《21世纪经济报道》 and 《财经》 as two of the best publications in China for economic and political news. The specialized vocabulary in these areas isn't that extensive. The key is really to get to the level where you can read general news.

[venture160]

If you want to meet the children of China's elites, then go to school in the US. They all go to the ivies and west coast schools. At my normal state university there are children of large SOE executives, local mayors, party chiefs and PLA generals.

This again might be out of your price range but Middlebury college runs a program in Hangzhou with the exact same structure of CET Harbin. (CET manages the social side of the hangzhou program). http://www.middlebury.edu/academics/sa/china/

[Jamoldo]

Thanks for the compliments, Adrian. Gato, my level is definitely not good enough to get into newspapers yet. We start doing that in the next level, with Newspaper reading classes. Everyone seems to hate it and say its a lot of work, but I'm still looking forward to it since I'll be reading and translating newspaper articles, which to me, shows real progress.

Venture, Middlebury's thing is out of my price range, though I can't discount the summer program in VT (though it does not seem to make sense to leave China to study Chinese in the US). Also, remember that elite (rich) kids also have to test well enough to get into Ivies and even then there's no guarantee. I am sure there are enough at Beishida and other nearby decent/good schools.

[venture160]

the middlebury summer program is something like 7K for 7 weeks or something, REALLY expensive. I dont think its worth it, you could study in Beijing for more than a year on that.

[Jamoldo]

I agree, but CET is the same price and not as Intense, at least Beijing. I think the key is that Midd is much better with Financial Aid (ie. generous), if I was to get financial aid, I would definitely consider it.

As for 7k in Beijing, it looks like that's pretty much what I'm going to have spent, maybe 8k for studying and living in Beijing this past year. And as Adrian can attest, I've been really cheap at times, I certainly have not skimped in many areas that I could if I wanted to.

[gato]

We start doing that in the next level, with Newspaper reading classes. Everyone seems to hate it and say its a lot of work

You don't mean real hate, do you? I would think that being able to read adult-level material is what it's all about. They should be ecstatic that they are approaching the level of fluency needed to read a newspaper. Sure, it takes a lot of work, but that's Chinese for you. If you don't put in the work, you'll never get beyond the beginner stage.

[Jamoldo]

Gato, from my understanding they hate the classes I think. I think they just find the material boring and dry, more so than the actual fact that they are reading the newspaper and translating. the other thing is that it's just very difficult.

Let me give you an idea. Here at Beishida there are numerous levels of classes. 100 - ni hao, 101, 102, 201, 202, 301, 302, 401, 402 - fluent/super advanced (as in you're probably a foreign BA student).

I'm currently in 101, and some 3rd year students at my alma mater in the US looked at my texts and noted that it looked pretty challenging. Newspaper reading classes start in 102. Most students in 102 have studied chinese for 2-3 years in their universities. Actually kids from 102-202 mostly have studied for about 3 years in their universities at home (Some top ones will be in 301), but most fall in the 102-202 range. But I'll be in 102 this coming fall unless my Chinese improves a fair bit this summer (which it should since I'll be studying intensively in Dalian). And I started in 100 this past September. So I don't know if it's about fluency or what. Plus lots of Koreans who can tear up newspapers and the reading and writing here can't speak Chinese if their lives depended on it. My spoken ability despite being in 101 is better than some 201 students and I am by no means bragging when I say that. Then again my reading/writing is nowhere near as good as their's as it should not be.

So I don't know if its fluency or just intensive studying or whatever. I'm looking forward to newspaper reading because like you said, it's a milestone and its practical. Maybe I'll change my tune but we'll see... Sorry for the long post.

[gato]

I think they just find the material boring and dry, more so than the actual fact that they are reading the newspaper

Maybe their teachers are asking them to read happy news from People's Daily. That would be boring. I hope that's not how they're teaching it, though. There are a lot of quality newspapers and magazines in China today.