Language learning without using your native language

[Hero Doug]

I talk to a lot of Chinese people who say before they say a sentence in English they first think of it in Chinese, then translate it to English, and say it.

For listening, they listen to English, translate it to Chinese, then process.

To me, this isn't learning a language, it's just an abstraction layer used to interact with ones native language.

I've been very careful about trying to avoid using English when studying Chinese so I can just respond to Chinese as if it were English.

So far it's been easy because my level's still basic. I've just had to look at the English meaning and write the character/pinyin over and over until I can remember how to write it properly (note: I don't say the English meaning in my head while writing, I'd say the Chinese pronunciation if anything).

I'd like to apply this principle to reconizing grammar and syntax patterns as well. I just can't figure out how to give myself a clue as to what pattern I should construct without using English.

Any ideas?

[wushijiao]

I think perhaps the key is to listen to a ton of listening materials that are made for your current level, or slightly above. I would recommend listening to a target sentence or small conversation, over and over, until you have it down pat, to the point that you could recite it from memory, including your best efforts to immitate their accents. Also, if you have a tutor or friend, you can practice substituting new words into those same grammar patterns (from the target sentences) in order to make new, original sentences.

Then, over time, I think that by really focusing on intense listening, you will notice that you can subconsiously absorb common grammar patterns, and you'll get the added benefits of improving your listening ability, and more indirectly, improving your speaking.

Anyway, just my two cents. Good luck!

[Hero Doug]

Yeah I like the idea of listening. I think you can really passively learn a lot through listening. A good example would be my girlfriend. I'm dating a Chinese girl and I've heard her say someones name and say "Where did I learn how to say her name?" afterwards (it was a unique name). She just picked it up somewhere.

The only thing with this approach is obtaining listening materials that focus on the content being studied. It may be a good idea to obtain whatever decent materials one can get and listen to them knowing that one day you'll understand it all in a "ohh" moment where it finally clicks in through study.

One thing I thought of was how to make flashcards that don't use ones native language.

So far what I've thought of is this. Most of the time people will study from a resource such as a book (which is divided into lessons), DVD, article, etc.

In each lesson you should know what patterns there are.

An example sentence in one of the lessons is a book I have is:

There are busses leaving every 30 minutes from 6:00am straight through to 11:00pm.

I think it should be possible to give yourself clues as to what pattern to construct with what vocab.

Clue:

airplanes

arriving

2 hours

7:30am

8:30pm

It don't think this idea can be applied to smaller patterns

Pattern:

I am from Barrie

Clue:

I Barrie

It may be too easy to confuse it with other patterns.

[Songyi]

I started learning Chinese without using English at all. We started learning how all children learn their mother tongue - just listening and watching the teacher point at things and doing things. Lots of listening and watching.

[yonglin]

i think it's a very good thing, unless you want to go into interpretation or translation or something like that. i have to think very hard to translate anything between english and chinese. actually, i have a very hard time translating things between english and swedish (my mother tongue), despite speaking both of them fluently. translation/interpretation between different languages is quite different from knowing how to speak them.

[Hero Doug]

Songyi >>> The method you mentioned is good provided you have that kind of environment to learn in. I don't, and even if I did, it would only be for a few hours a week during class. I'm looking for something that I can do at home by myself.

yonglin >>> I would think being fluent in both languages (whatever they may be) would be benifical since you would know the correct usage of the languages and won't have to substitute anything from your own language (which leads to Chinglish).

I think learning a languages and always learning the corresponding native phrase/vocab would lead one to have a problem such as Chinglish.

[kdavid]

One thing I've never done is written English or translated vocab into English in my Chinese notebooks. I've always used Chinese to help define Chinese.

In the beginning, it was just a lot of memorization and drilling (I didn't translate much in the beginning).

As for sentence patterns and grammar, I do a lot of substitution drills. I try not to think "how can I translate this English sentence into Chinese", but rather "how do I express this in Chinese".

This has worked well for me so far.

[Hero Doug]

That's the way I'm starting to go. I'm redoing book one of Chinese Made Easier with this pholosophy and I think I have found a good method to use.

As an example chapter one is just introductions.

Hello, what's you name.

My name is Doug.

Are you American.

No, I'm British.

So I just take that basic stuff and make (write or say) sentences using the vocab I know with the new sentence patterns from the lesson as if I were two people. This way I don't need flashcards (time wasting making those) either.

Another thing for remembering vocab that may not get used a lot if going through your vocab list for a lesson, and just start talking/writing. Let the vocab dictate where the story/dialogue goes.

I also like the idea of using the target language to define the target language, I'll be sure to include that.

[leosmith]

One thing I've never done is written English or translated vocab into English in my Chinese notebooks. I've always used Chinese to help define Chinese.

I'd like to try this. Could you provide some examples (with pinyin)? Anyone else have examples of chinese to chinese flashcards? I'm a beginner, btw.

[赫杰]

Yes, you have the right idea. Get used to translating all thought and feelings into Chinese, the earlier the better. I mean you might as well, yes? Language is just a language, a medium for expression and communication. Look to have first reactions in Chinese, not in English. But beware, if you live outside of your home country and are not exposed to the mother language for a prolonged amount of time, your mother language perhaps will take a drastic hit. I mean this seems to be a natural chain of events, you are bound to lose a little of your language, if another language slowly becomes first reaction. And I assume this is varying from person to person, as well as depends on how far one wishes to go with the studies, so maybe this won't be a factor for you at all...just remember to be a little mindful to not completely forget your mother tongue, or you shall find yourself in the near future too often asking your Chinese friends how to say the English counterparts of various Chinese phrases and taking measures to revive your mother language.

HJ