Reading Chinese using Shanghainese pronunciation

[Mark Yong]

Is there still a sizeable number of native Shanghainese speakers who can intuitively read Chinese texts using their native Shanghainese pronuncation (the same way Hong Kongers intuitively use Cantonese pronunciation when reading)?

For instance, when a native Shanghainese speaker sees a sign that says 和平飯店, would they be able to read it as wu bing ve ti instead of the Mandarin he2 ping2 fan1 dian4. Or a street sign that says 南京路 as noe jing lu instead of the Mandarin nan2 jing1 lu4? Or a billboard that says 端午節 as due ng jie instead of the Mandarin duan1 wu3 jie2?

I am aware that there are many words in Shanghainese that are not cognates with their Mandarin equivalents, and this adds to the difficulty. In these case, can a native Shanghainese speaker still pronounce the Mandarin equivalents using Shanghainese pronunciation character-for-character?

For instance, when a Hong Kong Cantonese reader sees the words 為甚麼, he/she reads it word-for-word as wai-sum-mor, even though he/she would normally use diim-gaai in normal speech.

Would the average Shanghainese speaker therefore be able to read the three characters 為甚麼 word-for-word using Shanghainese pronunciation, or would he/she read it using the Mandarin pronunciation wei4 shen2 me1, and probably translate it on-the-fly as we-sa 為啥?

I have spoken to some young (early-20's) colleagues from Shanghai, and they tell me that as much as they are native Shanghainese speakers, they are unable to read a simple Chinese text using the Shanghainese dialect pronunciation (well, not intuitively, anyway!).

As for words unique to Shanghainese, are there many Shanghainese who are aware that their word for 東西 in Shanghainese, i.e. me zi, is 物事? Or that the word for 錢 in Shanghainese, i.e. tong di, is 銅鈿?

I suppose the only place where Chinese text would be read using Shanghainese dialect word-for-word today would be in song lyrics or stage plays... would that be a correct assumption?

[delloy]

actually , shanghai dialect can pronoucce every words in mandarin just like hong kong people do.

but it is weird if you say 为什么 or 钱 instead of 为撒 and cao piao or dong di

some native shanghaiese can not even understand . or they will think u are insane

[Mark Yong]

delloy wrote: but it is weird if you say 为什么 or 钱 instead of 为撒 and cao piao or dong di

Yes, understood. It is the same with Cantonese. A Cantonese speaker would sound totally weird if he uses the phrase 為甚麼 wai-sum-mor (i.e. Mandarin words using Cantonese pronunciation) in speech. So, of course a native Shanghainese speaker would use we-sa 為啥 in speech, instead of 為甚麼 (how do you pronounce this in Shanghainese, word-for-word)?

What I mean is, if a piece of Chinese text (either written in Classical Chinese 文言文 or Mandarin 普通話) were to be presented to a native Shanghainese, and he/she were asked to read it word-for-word using only Shanghainese pronunciation, what are the chances that he/she will be able to do it (of course I have no doubt that there are people who definitely can do it, but I am just wondering what percentage of the Shanghai population this constitutes).

I suppose it would be slightly easier and more acceptable to use Shanghainese pronunciation for Classical Chinese 文言文 rather than Mandarin 普通話, since Classical Chinese 文言文 is more dialectally-neutral.

And incidentally, are there any online radio stations that broadcast news, etc. using purely Shanghainese dialect? I know that http://gb.cri.cn/chinese_radio/ does not have it - though, they do have news broadcast in the other Southern dialects (which is surprising, given the much larger population of Wu 吳 speakers compared to the other Southern dialects).

**********

Personally, I would love to see the day when the Shanghainese dialect is officially revived as a living and working lingua franca in Shanghai. After all, Mandarin is already in such widespread use, I do not think it will be of any threat if the Shanghainese dialect is promoted.

[delloy]

Yes. all shanghainese can read in shangahi dialect when a mandarin text is put before him. However no one will do. I did once in high school with some friends just to see how fun it could be. As for 文言文 , I have never tried.maybe better.

And, as shanghai dialect is origniated from 吴语 . so if u can see wikipedia in 吴语 u will find how difference if mandarin texts are expressed by it.

I don't think there is any online radio station speaking shanghai dialect. But as far as I know .there is one radio frequency which broadcasted in Shanghai dilaect all day long. don't know it still exists or not. There is a famous programm called 滑稽王小毛, also in shanghai dialect, and is definitely still in operation now.

[Ah-Bin]

I know what you are asking, and I know the above reply is not answering exactly what you are asking. "reading a text out" (character-by-character according to Mandarin or Classical Chinese grammar) and translating it from what is written into spoken Shanghainese are two different things, and unfortunately I don't know the answer. I would expect that very old people who were taught to read Classical Chinese texts in the local pronunciation can do it, but I don;t know about the others.

[atitarev]

I guess, the reason for this phenomenon - translating on the fly from standard written Mandarin into a spoken Cantonese is because this is what happens in Hong Kong

In Hong Kong they have subtitles in standard Mandarin (somewhat different from mainland Mandarin), so that every Chinese person could read and avoiding dialectal words in formal situations or if the text is meant to be read by a wider audience.

In mainland China most people are taught in Mandarin, so when dialect speakers read, they use Mandarin.

delloy, 29th April 2007 10:14 PM:

but it is weird if you say 为什么 or 钱 instead of 为撒 and cao piao or dong di

some native shanghaiese can not even understand . or they will think u are insane

Wel, they could convert it to Shanghainese but I guess you need practice for that

[Ian_Lee]

Actually there are many occasions that standard Mandarin text pronounced in Cantonese can be heard in Hong Kong:

(1) News broadcast on TV:

The anchors usually speak from the standard Mandarin text in Cantonese with slight addition of Cantonese preposition, conjunction and exclamation remark. Even though it is not 100% Mandarin text, it is very purified and terms like diim-gaai are usually absent. But Mainland Mandarin terms, i.e. 氛圍, are also absent.

(2) Official address by top government leaders:

In the State of City address and the annual budget announcement which are broadcasted live, standard Mandarin text spoken in Cantonese are used by the top-notched officials since they almost recite straightly from the scripts which are published in standard Mandarin (and English).

But of course, those debates in the legislature are carried out in colloquial Cantonese with all kinds of added special Cantonese terms which make it more lively.

Other than movies (actually many comedies now prefer to have subtitles in exactly what the actors say -- colloquial Cantonese rather than standard Mandarin), almost all soap operas on TV carry standard Mandarin subtitles.

[Mark Yong]

Exactly. That is my point. Technically, it is possible to read texts written in Standard Mandarin word-for-word, using the pronunciation of another dialect, and be understood.

Whether or not it sounds 'weird' is simply a matter of educational and social conditioning. In Hong Kong, Standard Mandarin grammar is taught using Cantonese pronunciation, so to the locals, it sounds perfectly normal.

I am just thinking out loud how it could have been, had the same concept been applied in Shanghai. I mean, a lot of modern Standard Mandarin technical and commercial terminology has been adopted into the Shanghainese dialect word-for-word, so there should not be any problem, right? 'Weird' is simply a matter of perspective.

(Of course, all this is purely academic, given the onslaught of Mandarin in Shanghai and the resultant systematic demise of the Shanghainese dialect among the younger generation.)

[calibre2001]

Well, as long as both parties are exposed/trained to understand, they can communicate in such a manner as strange as it sounds.

Written language is often derived from the spoken. The reverse would somewhat inventing an artificial language.

[Ian_Lee]

Written language is NOT often derived from the spoken language.

The typical example is Classical Chinese. Classical Chinese had always been the official written language in East Asia for millenium albeit it was not a spoken language for rank and file Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese or even Chinese themselves.

When Kublai Khan planned to attack Japan in the thirteen century, he sent an imperial edict to the Japanese court (but actually received by the Shogunate). What language was written in the edict? Neither Mongol nor Japanese but Classical Chinese.

Why Classical Chinese? Because that was the only written language which existed and studied by the gentry in East Asia at that time.

[HashiriKata]

Written language is NOT often derived from the spoken language.

True, it's droped down from Heaven!

[Mark Yong]

Ian_Lee wrote: Actually there are many occasions that standard Mandarin text pronounced in Cantonese can be heard in Hong Kong

Hi, Ian Lee,

Thanks for your comments and insights. I actually addressed this question to you regarding how Cantonese speakers in Hong Kong reconcile reading Standard Mandarin texts, and whether they are consciously aware that the two are quite different dialects (languages?) or find it 'weird', at http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/11792-putonghua-ization-or-cantonization-in-guangdong&page=5

[Mark Yong]

Ian_Lee wrote: Even though it is not 100% Mandarin text, it is very purified...

This is interesting - I always had the impression that Standard Written Chinese (note: I am not referring to colloquial written Cantonese) in Hong Kong is Standard Mandarin or baihuawen 白話文 (to use the official Mainland terminology). The only subtle difference being the absence of more Beijing-specific colloquial words used.

And I also had the impression that the same thing applies for Standard Written Chinese used in Taiwan.

The other difference I know of between the Standard Written Chinese (Mandarin) used in Hong Kong / Taiwan vs. the Mainland, is that Hong Kong / Taiwan tends to employ more elements of Classical Chinese in its grammar (especially so in Taiwan) compared to the Mainland.

Am I correct?

(Perhaps this topic is best migrated to a new thread!)

[Ian_Lee]

I would say the difference among the Mainland Mandarin, Taiwan Mandarin and Standard Mandarin (for text writing) in HK is as varied as American English, British English and Australian English.

For instance, there are many terms in Mainland Mandarin that other Chinese speakers have a hard time understanding them, lest using them. Common terms such as 露富, 硬道理, 井噴, 信訪, 閃婚 , ....etc are rarely heard in other Chinese speaking communities.

[Mark Yong]

Ian_Lee wrote: When Kublai Khan planned to attack Japan in the thirteen century, he sent an imperial edict to the Japanese court (but actually received by the Shogunate). What language was written in the edict? Neither Mongol nor Japanese but Classical Chinese.

Now I am wondering out loud how Kublai Khan and the 13th century Mongols pronounced Chinese texts (since Khan's era pre-dates Modern Mandarin by at least three centuries).

[Ian_Lee]

Speaking of the Mongol language, there is the famous historical chronicle called 蒙古秘史.

It is famous because even though the whole chronicle is written in Chinese characters, the content does not make any sense no matter you use Mandarin or any kind of dialects to read it.

Why? Because the book only makes sense if you pronounce the Chinese characters in Mongol language. It takes centuries for Chinese and foreign historians to decipher. Sounds like Chinese/Mongol version of Da Vinci Code.

[parasite]

I don't know if old people can do it -- but the youth I have encountered never tried until I asked. I asked a 19 yr girl to read a page out of the book I was reading with Shanghainese pronunciation and let me record for my own fun, she was totally embarrassed but after 10 mins I convinced her. When I played it for a male in his 20's he thought it was horrible and said he could do better.

It's a matter of education -- everyone in China can tell you Mandarin has 4 tones, but almost none can tell you the number of tones that their mother tongue has. It's amazing -- but that stuff had to be deciphered by a linguist, otherwise speakers of tonal languages will go their entire lives being totally unaware.

You'll find some people in Guangzhou that are glad to teach you Cantonese for 100 kuai per hour but who insist that it has no romanization system or tone markings so you will just have to imitate them. (As if pinyin isn't AS ARBITRARY as using any system you like to write Cantonese -- it's only a matter of popularity, and if you want to teach Cantonese in a professional you goddamn better make a basic effort to be familiar with a system if your student expects it. ESPECIALLY something as basic awareness to differentiate the tones in a way which you can convey to someone learning the language, like preferable using numbers.)

[Mark Yong]

Hi, parasite,

Yes, you are right - learning to read a Chinese text using any particular dialectal pronunciation is simply a matter of education and getting used to it. I read somewhere recently that mother tongue education is a part of the Taiwanese school curriculum... I wonder if this can ever be the case for the Shanghainese dialect (or Wu dialects, in general).

By the way - do you still have the recording of the text your friend read using Shanghainese pronunciation? If you do, and do not mind, I would like to listen to it, just to have an idea of what it sounds like (even if your other friend did say it sounded horrible!)

[parasite]

I was just a tad over the filesize limit and had to split it in 2 unfortunately. I didn't convert it to mp3 or anything cause I didn't want to lose any more quality since the original is already a not-so-great quality wav.

She is reading page 88 in a book called 沉没的地平线 . IIRC she thought the book itself was a tough read.

p88beginning.wav

p88ending.wav

[Mark Yong]

Hi, parasite,

Thanks for the audio clips! Would it be too much to ask for you to type in the Chinese text that she read out, so that I can read along as I listen to it? If it is too much trouble, don't worry about it.