Second Language Acquisition = First Language Declination

[david1978]

What? Sorry to be asking this, but have you ever been to China?

Yes. Several times.

At least where I'm at (济南), you'll find very very little English spoken outside of any reasonably sized college campus, and even inside these campuses, you'll find countless legions of people who couldn't help you if their life depended on it.

I had no problems meeting English speakers amongst young people. Also considering the fact that there is such a massive demand for English teachers proves my point. Give China a few more years and English will be pervasive.

[david1978]

Well, it doesn't. It has to do with pervading cultural attitudes and an education system that doesn't stress the importance of foreign language acquisition nearly enough.

Okay. My turn to be snobby. Have you ever studied in America? I doesn't sound like it because you would know that second language is required in both the high school and college level. I went to a pretty fine American university and almost everyone spoke 2 or even 3 languages.

[muyongshi]

Well, it doesn't. It has to do with pervading cultural attitudes and an education system that doesn't stress the importance of foreign language acquisition nearly enough.

You're absolutely right. It is a cultural attitude (unfortunately it many times is one of superiority).

Okay. My turn to be snobby. Have you ever studied in America? I doesn't sound like it because you would know that second language is required in both the high school and college level. I went to a pretty fine American university and almost everyone spoke 2 or even 3 languages.

Required doesn't mean anything! I took the required in high school but it was not required in college. Not in Washington state anyway. And the majority of people I know in that states (even those that went to excellent university's) still only speak English and know just a little bit of another language.

So, don't speak for the rest of us in that area please because I know many that will disagree with you.

And by the way I took the required and can't form one logical sentence just a few words.

[gougou]

So, don't speak for the rest of us in that area please because I know many that will disagree with you.

You're absolutely right. It is a cultural attitude (unfortunately it many times is one of superiority).

So what makes you more qualified to speak for "the rest of you in that area" then him?

[Marceau]

I had no problems meeting English speakers amongst young people. Also considering the fact that there is such a massive demand for English teachers proves my point. Give China a few more years and English will be pervasive.

你好乐观！

I most vehemently disagree with you. Sure there is a top layer of youths that can hold their own in English, but the vast majority of college level (!) students can not get much beyond a horribly disfigured 'hellooooo!'

There might be a shortage of English teachers, but there is no lack of wishful thinking.

What do English teachers do in China? Let me tell you: they are thrown into small classrooms filled to the brim with students (64 to 68 in one particular high school, with a good reputation, mind you), where you have 40 minutes per week to give the exhausted kids (classes from 6.30 am to 10 pm, everyday!) a good footing in oral English. End result: teachers are paid a few bucks, students get little to nothing in the way of education.

Oh, you might say, but foreigners make up only a small portion of the English teaching army in China. They have many more classes with their Chinese teachers.

Fine. And what do they learn from these teachers? Well, perhaps it is time for full disclosure now: I am an English teacher in China, working in a college. I have a few colleagues here who keep referring to their mother as 'he' and to their male students as 'she'. I love them dearly, but I've actually taken to smacking one of them any time he makes that mistake.in my presence. One needn't worry though. He is my 哥们儿.

That is the level of many of the teachers here. They have hardly any fluency themselves, and would have a hell of time writing anything even resembling 'good English' if you held a gun to their head.

So what do they teach their students?

Basically, they teach them how to pass the various government-administered tests. CET being the big one. They learn how to correctly apply pressure on their pencils, and which little holes to fill up. Most college attending young‘uns have some basic reading skills, but don't have much more than that.

Yes, my name is Marceau and I'm an English teacher.

Though I enjoy my work greatly (at times), I am naught but baffled at the utter futility of it all. Even if I (and every other teacher my students have) would twist every joint in our collective bodies in a quest to teach these good kids English, you'd probably only see some real improvement in 10 or maybe 20 percent of them. And, to be honest, we all twist our joints on a daily basis!

[muyongshi]

I have a few colleagues here who keep referring to their mother as 'he' and to their male students as 'she'.

That is the level of many of the teachers here. They have hardly any fluency themselves, and would have a hell of time writing anything even resembling 'good English' if you held a gun to their head.

I wrote this in another thread here.

Kind of like the horrific vision I had of the result of English teaching when I was in a qiang village in the mountains listening to their "English teacher" (who was self taught through television) and imagining if I multiplied his bad English including pronunciation into all his students and then imagined those students teaching others....not a pretty picture.

[Marceau]

My turn to be snobby. Have you ever studied in America?

I never actually thought that receiving an education in the US would give one grounds for snobbery. I sort of had the opposite idea.

Some good-natured jabbing aside, I must concur with muyongshi and say that required doesn't mean much. It especially doesn't carry a lot of meaning if you live in the kind of place where the necessity for the requirement just seems completely, well, foreign. I'm guessing it's common to hear those folks, once they're in their late twenties, say "yeah, I had to take it in high school, but I forgot all of it."

[muyongshi]

So what makes you more qualified to speak for "the rest of you in that area" then him?

I'm not more qualified to speak for everyone than him and I feel you took me out of context. I did say many times. This does not imply that it is always this way, mainly this way, or even half the times. I merely said that there are a good number of these cases and if you disagree with that please say so and state reasons.

The lack of exposure, lack of willingness, and just in pure numbers we can see that in the US people just don't give a rip and tests show that most high school students can't point to iraq on a map. I guess you can mark this up to bad education but I think the root issue is a feeling of superiority. I believe the "i don't need to know this" attitude is a main symptom of that superiority.

[gato]

I am naught but baffled at the utter futility of it all. you'd probably only see some real improvement in 10 or maybe 20 percent of them. And, to be honest, we all twist our joints on a daily basis!

Don't give up. 10 to 20% ain't bad.

[muyongshi]

Even if I (and every other teacher my students have) would twist every joint in our collective bodies in a quest to teach these good kids English, you'd probably only see some real improvement in 10 or maybe 20 percent of them. And, to be honest, we all twist our joints on a daily basis!

So could we assume this number is the same for all students learning a second language removed from that language environment?? I am curious on how this number could compare to the states.

And this does have to do with the topic but could we say that to learn a language well (and I mean better than average or just knowing the words but not producing sentences that sound like a native speaker) you must be in that environment?

And then because you have to be in the environment you most likely are removed from your first language environment and so lead to a minor decrease in your first language ability?

[gougou]

The discussion about elite universities can now be found in Chat and Language Exchange. Please go there to chat and exchange language; language acquisition can still be discussed here.

[david1978]

I most vehemently disagree with you. Sure there is a top layer of youths that can hold their own in English, but the vast majority of college level (!) students can not get much beyond a horribly disfigured 'hellooooo!'

There might be a shortage of English teachers, but there is no lack of wishful thinking.

What do English teachers do in China? Let me tell you: they are thrown into small classrooms filled to the brim with students (64 to 68 in one particular high school, with a good reputation, mind you), where you have 40 minutes per week to give the exhausted kids (classes from 6.30 am to 10 pm, everyday!) a good footing in oral English. End result: teachers are paid a few bucks, students get little to nothing in the way of education.

Oh, you might say, but foreigners make up only a small portion of the English teaching army in China. They have many more classes with their Chinese teachers.

Fine. And what do they learn from these teachers? Well, perhaps it is time for full disclosure now: I am an English teacher in China, working in a college. I have a few colleagues here who keep referring to their mother as 'he' and to their male students as 'she'. I love them dearly, but I've actually taken to smacking one of them any time he makes that mistake.in my presence. One needn't worry though. He is my 哥们儿.

That is the level of many of the teachers here. They have hardly any fluency themselves, and would have a hell of time writing anything even resembling 'good English' if you held a gun to their head.

So what do they teach their students?

Basically, they teach them how to pass the various government-administered tests. CET being the big one. They learn how to correctly apply pressure on their pencils, and which little holes to fill up. Most college attending young‘uns have some basic reading skills, but don't have much more than that.

Yes, my name is Marceau and I'm an English teacher.

Though I enjoy my work greatly (at times), I am naught but baffled at the utter futility of it all. Even if I (and every other teacher my students have) would twist every joint in our collective bodies in a quest to teach these good kids English, you'd probably only see some real improvement in 10 or maybe 20 percent of them. And, to be honest, we all twist our joints on a daily basis!

Sounds like a far cry from the China whose "super power" status has already been assured in the minds of Sino-philes! lol

[DrZero]

In general the whole attitude of Americans is kind of funny: "Everybody around the world knows English, so why should we learn foreign languages?" I've been to Japan and China and I can assure them that everybody does -not- speak English. The notion is reinforced by businesspeople, though, who travel abroad and find that all the people they deal with (high-level executives) do speak English.

Even if everybody did speak English, it's still important to know their language if you intend to spend time in a given country, so you can understand what people say around you.