Do 妳 & 你 mean the same?

[Scarlet]

I thought the word 'you' is written like this? 你

But I recently saw this when looking at some lyrics... 妳

[ChineseSpeaker]

你 refers to both male and femal "you"

妳 refers to female "you" only

你 is the standard word

[xxj2422042]

they more or less have the same meaning.

the saying of "妳“referring only to female doesn't exist in China mainland now,we only use "你”to refer both male and female just like "you",but in the lyrics it appears sometimes because "妳“ is one of the traditional forms of "你” and it often used in HONGKONG , Cantonese and maybe Taiwan. and most of songs are from those place!

BTW as far as i know, in the old days people often used "汝（ru3)” instead of"你“！

[skylee]

Cantonese

I wonder if this is true.

[Lu]

妳 is used in Taiwan, you see it a lot in lyrics but it appears to be used in everyday life as well. But you can use 你 just as well, is for both men and women.

Recently a TW friend addressed me as 汝 in an email. That was the first time I saw that one used outside of a classical text.

[skylee]

Recently a TW friend addressed me as 汝 in an email.

This is so stylish.

[Scarlet]

Thanks for the information I was completely confused when I first saw it

I feel better now

[Mugi]

Recently a TW friend addressed me as 汝 in an email. That was the first time I saw that one used outside of a classical text.

In addition to being a classical word for "you", it is also the proper way of writing "lí" in Taiwanese (the cognate for Mandarin 你), so you often see it used in email, chat rooms, blogs etc. written (at least partially) in Taiwanese.

A very basic evolution of "you" in Chinese looks like this: 女 → 汝 → 你.

The divergence in pronunciation between 女 and 汝 probably happened a couple of millenia ago, while the development of 你 from 汝 happened less than 1,000 years ago.

[Lu]

In addition to being a classical word for "you", it is also the proper way of writing "lí" in Taiwanese (the cognate for Mandarin 你), so you often see it used in email, chat rooms, blogs etc. written (at least partially) in Taiwanese.

Ah, then perhaps it wasn't classical Chinese but rather Taiwanese that my friend was writing. Thanks!

A very basic evolution of "you" in Chinese looks like this: 女 → 汝 → 你.

I thought 汝 was the original form, and 女 a kind of shorthand, and that 女 originally means 'woman'. But are 汝 and 你 related then, they look and sound completely different.

[zozzen]

But check this out: 妳 is actually the word 奶 (breast) in Cantonese, so you know why this word refers to a female.

(source: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%A9p# )

[skylee]

I know the word 妳 refers to a female because of the 女 radical.

[Mugi]

I thought 汝 was the original form, and 女 a kind of shorthand, and that 女 originally means 'woman'.

There are two issues here.

1. Derivation of the second person personal pronoun

2. Character usage

I'm no expert in area of historical phonology or etymology, but it seems quite reasonable to me that "you" would be derived from "woman" (cf colloquial English usage: "Hey woman!"). The fact the the two words (you & woman) shared the same pronunciation initially is too much of a coincidence IMHO.

As a character, 汝 is clearly subsequent to 女. Both were used interchangeably for "you" in early writing, probably because of the identical (or near identical) pronunciation as the second person personal pronoun. In fact, in some sinitic languages the pronunciation is still identical to this day. I would imagine that 汝 was borrowed to more clearly distinguish meaning between "woman" and "you".

But are 汝 and 你 related then, they look and sound completely different.

This is true of Mandarin, but not necessarily so of other sinitic languages. In Minnan dialects for example, 汝 and 你 are pronounced exactly or almost the same. But even in Mandarin, ru3 and ni3 are actually not that far apart phonetically.

The reason that the two don't share any physical resemblence is because the pronunciation of "you" in proto-Mandarin diverged from 女/汝, and as is often the case, speakers at the time probably decided a new character was needed to clearly mark this changed pronunciation. So over time, character usage changed as follows:

女/汝 → 若 → 爾/尔 → 你.

[zozzen]

According to a dictionary, 妳 is a deviation of the word 嬭.

嬭 means breast or mother in ancient text.

Reference:

http://140.111.34.46/cgi-bin/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=45507&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=%EC%CE

[skylee]

But even in Mandarin, ru3 and ni3 are actually not that far apart phonetically.

I don't see how.

But then I know nothing about phonetics.

[Lu]

According to a dictionary, 妳 is a deviation of the word 嬭.

I'm not an expert either, but although in theory the characters may be related, I think in practice 妳 is a fairly new character derived from 你, that just happens to look exactely the same as the 妳 that is the simplified form of 嬭. In other words, I think the word 'you (female)' has nothing to do with the word 'breast', even though they apparently can be written with the same character.

I'm no expert in area of historical phonology or etymology, but it seems quite reasonable to me that "you" would be derived from "woman" (cf colloquial English usage: "Hey woman!"). The fact the the two words (you & woman) shared the same pronunciation initially is too much of a coincidence IMHO.

Again, I'm not an expert, but I think this must be a coincidence. I think calling someone 'woman' as meaning 'you' is quite a stretch. Except, of course, if the you in question is in fact a woman, but as Chinese (like many other languages) on the whole is fairly male-centered, it seems unlikely to me that 'you' has developed this way.

Seems someone should write a paper on this...

[Mugi]

I don't see how.

But then I know nothing about phonetics.

Take a look at this IPA chart of consonants and you'll notice that both the Mandarin "n" and "r" (ʐ) are articulated in the same place. When you look at a chart of vowels, you'll notice that both Mandarin "i" and "u" are on the same horizontal plane.

While "ru" and "ni" are not "extremely close" sounds, in the larger scheme of things they are "quite close".

[Mugi]

Again, I'm not an expert, but I think this must be a coincidence. I think calling someone 'woman' as meaning 'you' is quite a stretch.

Out of curiosity then, how would you explain a man calling somewhat angrily to a woman, "Hey, woman!" (= "Hey, you!") ?

The very fact that 女 was selected to write "you" in ancient texts is strong (although granted, not unequivocal) evidence that the two are related. Though one mustn't forget that the concepts of "woman" and "you" must have existed long before writing ever came on the scene.

Would you think 農 → 儂 (second person personal pronoun) in many Wu dialects to also be a stretch?

Except, of course, if the you in question is in fact a woman, but as Chinese (like many other languages) on the whole is fairly male-centered

That's precisely the reason that it is so plausible!!

Seems someone should write a paper on this...

Papers have been written ... where do think I'm regurgitating this info from?

To be honest, I don't think I've read a specific paper solely on the derivation of "you", but I have come across it on a few occasions in papers on other topics. There's quite a bit on the net, and even more in relevant books, but mostly written in Chinese.

[skylee]

While "ru" and "ni" are not "extremely close" sounds, in the larger scheme of things they are "quite close".

In the larger scheme of things, of course.

[Lu]

Of course it makes perfect sense for someone to address a woman as 'woman', and in a society dominated by women this might lead to 'woman' meaning 'you'. But I think that a Chinese man would not be amused if he were addressed as 'woman', not now and not several thousand years ago, that's why I think it's unlikely that it developed this way. In China it's more customary to address the other person (you) very respectfully, while talking about yourself (I) as unimportant. Even the character 女 shows a person (presumably a woman) kneeling down to serve someone something. Not a very respectful way to address someone.

I always assumed the 農 in 儂 was just the phonetic component, but I guess you can see it as related. In that case, I suppose it makes sense. If there are a lot of farmers in an area, people might start addressing each other like this, and it might grow into the language. But given the position of women in ancient China, it seems not so likely to me that the same has happened with 汝/女.

[Mugi]

Lu, are you sure that China has always been a strongly patriarchal society? Irrespective, of what the social circumstances were several thousand years ago, "woman" and "you" sounded the same for a significant period of history (and still sound the same in some extent dialects), so in fact Chinese men were (and in some places still are) calling other men "women" (at least, phonologically there was/is no difference).

You would also seem to be imposing contemporary western values on your interpretation of the character 女 ...

As for 農/儂, it seems to be generally accepted among academics that 農 originally referred to a farmer, and at some stage came to refer directly to the second person for farmers, and then became a general second person pronoun. Wu speakers these days by no means limit 儂 to addressing only farmers...

Could not a similar process have occured with 女? i.e., at first meaning "woman", then being used as a second person pronoun for women, then adopted as a general second person pronoun, by which time, although the pronunciation remained the same, the two meanings had become quite separate in peoples' minds.