The most "westernized" Chinese Dynasty

[Ian_Lee]

Ever since the Western horsemen began raising smut and dust,

Fur and fleece, rank and rancid, have filled Hsien and Lo.

Women make themselves Western matrons by the study of Western makeup;

Entertainers present Western tunes, in their devotion to Western music. -- Yuan Chen, Tang Poet

Which dynasty is the most “westernized” dynasty in Chinese history?

Tang Dynasty.

Here is an article on the exoticism of Tang Dynasty:

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/tang.shtml

One of the interesting paragraphs that depicts the interaction between Chinese and foreigners in this Golden Era:

Most of the foreigners who came to China during Tang dynasty were Turks, Uighurs, Tocharians, Sogdians, and the Jews in the north comparing to the Chams, Khmers, Javanese, and Singhalese who crowded the south. In both places, however, there were many Arabs, Persian, and Indians. The Iranian population must have been most important that the Tang government even had an office "of the Sarthavak" (literally, "of the Caravan Leader") to watch over their interests.

With the establishment of the Islamic empire in the 7th century, the inflow increased, and the newcomers were mostly Arabs. Some of the foreigners came to trade, made a profit, and returned home; others settled permanently in the cities in China. Within each of these cities, foreigners lived in segregated quarters, and from them the city government selected a respected or influential man as their chief. The Arabs constituted the largest number of foreigners in residence, and very often the chief was an Arab. Most foreigners adopted Chinese manners and habits. If a foreign committed a crime against his own countrymen, the customary law of his native land would apply; if the crime were committed against a man of a different nationality or a Chinese, the Chinese law would prevail. Intermarriage with Chinese was allowed and many foreigners did marry Chinese women; they were not allowed, however, to take their Chinese wives back to their home countries.

[Quest]

"middle easternized"?

[Ian_Lee]

The Islamic Empire during Tang's era was hardly confined only to Middle East. Its territory spans from Spain in the West to Central Asia in the East. In fact, Arab-Uygyr defeated the Tang Army at the decisive battle of Talas (somewhere near Caspian Sea in present day Kazakstan) in A.D. 751 which changed the political landscape there for millenium.

Moreover, Arab was the leader in science and technology at that time while Europe lagged them far behind.

By the way, Middle East is a recent Euro-centric term (Near East, Middle East and Far East) which was not yet loaded into the vocabulary during Tang's time.

[Quest]

it was not "westernized" in today's sense.

[Xuan Yuan]

Tang dynasty was the true golden age of China. Much like America today, her people welcomed various new ideas and had strong confidence in their own culture. This lead an explosive development of art, scicence and literature.

The Battle of Talas was fought between Tang and Arab/Turk not Uygyr. Tang wasn't decisively defeated at the battle. Lost of 20000 men was nothing to An Xi Du Hu Fu. It was An Lushan's rebellion which resulted in Tang pulling her forces of central asia to fight with the rebels that enable Uygyr to dominate Western Region.

[Ian_Lee]

Tang dynasty was very westernized in the modern day sense in term of women costume and female body figure.

Almost all Tang beauties wore low-cut blouse with their breasts half-naked. Moreover, most Tang girls had big breasts. Yang Gui Fei definitely had big boobs. In Cantonese idiom, the tender skin of Yang's breast is described as "newly-peeled chicken head meat" .

And Tang women did not bind their feet. They also didn't have breast implant. Many of them were mixed and probably were blonde.

If Tang women were alive today, I guess they would be hot chicks in Hollywood.

Too bad after Tang, the women bound their feet. They also hid their boobs and the size became smaller and smaller.

That was a grave loss for mankind.

[skylee]

This is one of the most beautiful Tang female figures I have seen (look at how she dresses), and the real thing is even prettier than these photos -

[39degN]

Tang dynasty was very westernized in the modern day sense in term of women costume and female body figure.

Almost all Tang beauties wore low-cut blouse with their breasts half-naked. Moreover, most Tang girls had big breasts. Yang Gui Fei definitely had big boobs. In Cantonese idiom, the tender skin of Yang's breast is described as "newly-peeled chicken head meat" .

come on, buddy!

what's your defination of westernized? you mean open-minded, chasing fanshions ... are always western things?

that just prove that in tang dynisty, the mindle kingdom is the strongest contry in the world, but why westernized? did they really know west?

[39degN]

wow, skylee, so impressed! i think the shirt even in today could be fashionable!

[nnt]

but why westernized? did they really know west?

Sure you know "The Journey to the West" (Xi1 You2 Ji4 西遊記(游记))? If you don't' date=' you won't have your place in paradize( 西方極樂(极乐)淨土 ). But it's another "western"

Skylee:

I was disappointed that your picture's beauty does not fit the above-mentioned standards :

Almost all Tang beauties wore low-cut blouse with their breasts half-naked. Moreover, most Tang girls had big breasts

Surely, she might have been Tang's representation of Cinderella instead...

[39degN]

Sure you know "The Journey to the West" (Xi1 You2 Ji4 西遊記(游记))? If you don't, you won't have your place in paradize( 西方極樂(极乐)淨土 ). But it's another "western"

oh, so sad, seems i might never have the place in paradise.

and i m also wondering why tang brings the religion from india, as the middle kingdom has its own religions, taoism and others, why Buddhism? (no offence at all), totally a retrogress!

i have no deep research about that, but seems and after that, taoism gave a negative image to ppl, they always been called 妖道 and so on.

[nnt]

why Buddhism?

Boddhidharma, the founder of ShaoLin temple was an Indian: no Buddhism--> No ShaoLin --> No Wuxia films!

[39degN]

no Buddhism--> No ShaoLin --> No Wuxia films!

oh, no, i want my Wuxia films! so it's not a problem, who cares whether Buddhism, just let it be!

[bathrobe]

most Tang girls had big breasts

after Tang, the women ... hid their boobs and the size became smaller and smaller

Is this physiologically possible? Has boob size actually changed? Or is it merely that the ideal of boob size has changed? In other words, a drop-dead gorgeous chick with little breasts who wouldn't have rated a glance in the Tang dynasty became hot property in later eras. With changes in the ideal of feminine beauty, small-breasted women gradually came to the fore (as it were).

[roddy]

Please send all photographic evidence of the above mentioned phenomena to me so I can check it's appropriate to post on the board

Seriously Ian, I'd be very keen (and suprised) to see any evidence that Tang dynasty girls 'had big breasts'

Roddy

[nnt]

Is this physiologically possible? Has boob size actually changed?

There should be archeological research whether or not silicone was used in Tang's era for what-you-know. Tang's science might have been very much in advance.

[39degN]

Is this physiologically possible? Has boob size actually changed?

yes, their BWH were usually as Jennifer Lopez's and without silicone use. lol

[bhchao]

Tang women were quite independent and individualistic. Women in China leading up to the end of the Tang enjoyed high prestige and accomplishment. Two examples of headstrong women in China were the notorious Empress Lu of the Han dynasty and Wu Zetian.

After seeing how Wu Zetian conducted herself, many men in high government would not want to see a woman like her rise up in government again. Gradually opinions towards women in China changed and by the start of the Song dynasty, women were expected to be submissive. That's when footbinding started in the Song dynasty.

If there was an accurate painting of Yang Guifei, I would like to see it.

Ten Criteria for Beauty in Ancient China:

Different periods of history had their own ideals regarding feminine beauty, but 10 specific characteristics are consistent throughout.

1. Black lustrous hair and temples "as thin as cicada wings."

2. Hair loosely coiled on the head to give an appearance of added height.

3. Finely shaped black eyebrows. During the Tang Dynasty, many women shaved their eyebrows, and drew them in with pigment.

4. Large, bright expressive eyes.

5. Red lips and white teeth. Besides beauty, this is thought to indicate good health.

6. Graceful fingers and arms. A pretty woman was expected to have well-shaped hands with slim and soft fingers as well as fair and fleshy arms.

7. Slender waist and fair skin. For most part the willowy figure has been deemed the best throughout history.

8. Tiny feet and a light elegant gait.

9. Dressing according to complexion, figure and disposition.

10. Fragrant body. It's said a concubine of Qing emperor Qian Long (1711-1799) emanated natural fragrance.

[Ian_Lee]

I agree with some posters that Tang was just like US today.

Both people like/liked to take bath.

As far as I recalled, the only Chinese poem that depicted beauty taking bath was the Tang poem about Yang Gui Fei taking bath with the hot spring water in the Hua Qing Basin.

During my visit to Xian, the tour guide even took us to visit the Hua Qing Basin (But it looked brand new with new paint and couldn't convince me in believing that is the site).

However, such hygienic tradition has regressed in Ming's time. I read the novel written in Ming which mentioned about bath. By that time, the aristocrat's daughter had to choose "good" days to take a bath and wash their hair.

"Good" days refer to some days like the 15th or so and so which just comes once a month.

I guess they must have bidet in Ming's time to just wash their genitals.

[Ian_Lee]

If there was an accurate painting of Yang Guifei, I would like to see it.

Here is a portrait of Yang Gui Fei by Japanese painter during Edo era (17th Century):

http://www.suntory.co.jp/sma/english/exhibition/200009deai/l_5.html

i m also wondering why tang brings the religion from india, as the middle kingdom has its own religions, taoism and others, why Buddhism? (no offence at all), totally a retrogress!

Tang didn't just import Buddhism but exported Buddhism too. The famous monk Jianzhan brought Buddhism from Yangzhou to Kyoto.