Western Buddhists in China

[lilongyue]

I'm looking to find some other Western Buddhists living in China. Anyone who frequents this forum a Buddhist? I guess because of the Cultural Revolution, and the rather isolationistic nature of the Chinese Buddhist communities outside of China, I rarely run into Buddhist foreigners here (unlike when I was in India, Thailand, South Korea, etc.). Anyone?

[lilongyue]

Guess that answers my question . . .

[shibole]

I tend to think of most western Buddhists as either Zen Buddhists who attend Korean or maybe Japanese Zen temples, or Tibetian Buddhists. I basically know of zero western Pure Land Buddhists, and no "Ch'an Buddhists" (if in fact there is such a thing... I tend to think of Chinese Zen Buddhists as also being into Pure Land and Guan Yin). But anyway I tend to think of western Buddhists as going mostly to Korea or Japan if they go anywhere. My perception could be wrong though. I'm not sure if Tibetian Buddhists tend to study in Tibet or places in India like Dharamsala if they go anywhere, but some American Tibetian Buddhists that I've talked to actually seem to think that they'd get arrested for being a Tibetian Buddhist if they ever went to China. I usually tell them that probably wouldn't happen unless they show up at Tiananmen Square with a big sign that says "Free Tibet!" or something. In fact I think more Chinese people than you'd think may study Tibetian Buddhism.

One thing to be warned of, however, if you try to organize some western Buddhists in China (like start a club or something) you may run afoul of the authorities if you don't get governmental approval. According to my wife, any religious group has to be approved by the government. While that might be the official law though, I don't know for sure if anyone would care if you started a club with 5-10 people who were all westerners or foreigners. I wouldn't take any chances though. They may be sensitive to foreigners trying to organize anything since they get a certain amount of activists and stuff that show up in China and try to organize protests and stuff.

[wushijiao]

I don't know for sure if anyone would care if you started a club with 5-10 people who were all westerners or foreigners.

I really doubt if the authorities would care if it were just foreigners, but if you start to proselytize, they might care. Due to the Hebei authorities, I once had to sign a contract saying that I wouldn't even talk about religion, Tibet, and Falungong, or sex. The school made it clear that we could get fired for talking about these issues in class. They also made it clear that religious proselytizing, in our free time, could get us fired. While I find these issues to be interesting and important, I didn't see a conflict of interest, because I was teaching English, and not politics or religion.

From some people that I met, it seems that Taiwan has a fairly active Buddhist community. I don't know if that extends to the foreign community, but I did meet one American guy (while traveling in Tibet) who was in studying in Taiwan for that reason.

I have to say, after living in the Mainland for over 5 years and meeting thousands of other expats, I don't remember ever meeting a Buddhist.

[lilongyue]

I think you're right in your observations on Western Buddhist's interests. I know two American's who have been coming to China for years, and are also translators. They bring groups of Americans on "Zen Tours," but those people are all practicing Japanese Zen, and are coming to see Zen's roots. The Tibetan groups do go to India for religious study, and only come to China for sight-seeing, as far as I know. The Chinese temples that exist in the U.S. tend to be catered to Chinese, and don't try very hard to reach out to English speaking Americans.

I was only looking for some other foreigners living in China who are also Buddhist, not planning to start any groups, but haven't found any so far, only people with a passing interest. Now that my Chinese is improving I'm able to set out on my own and go to temples. I visited the Fourth Patriarch's temple a while ago and plan on going back. They have a retreat temple way out on a mountain, and said I could go if I wanted. Hopefully during the Chinese New Year. There are a few temples that still do the very strict, twice-yearly Chan retreats. I was both surprised and pleased to find that out. The practice is investigating the 话头. There is still real Chan style meditation that goes on in China.

One thing I do plan on doing is to translate Chinese Buddhist material into English, not sutras but teachings and historical information. I'd like to help Chinese Buddhism in it's revival. I've been trying to contact the official, government Buddhist agency about translating, but their mail box seems to have some problem.

[lilongyue]

From some people that I met, it seems that Taiwan has a fairly active Buddhist community. I don't know if that extends to the foreign community, but I did meet one American guy (while traveling in Tibet) who was in studying in Taiwan for that reason.

True, Taiwan has a very active, living Buddhist community. It's a good example of a modern, Buddhist country. They do reach out to foreigners, too. If I could, I'd be in Taiwan right now, honestly.

The school made it clear that we could get fired for talking about these issues in class. They also made it clear that religious proselytizing, in our free time, could get us fired.

A lot of Christian missionaries come to China under the pretext of teaching English. I met one a while ago, a Mormon. I haven't heard of any missionaries getting in trouble yet, though.

[wushijiao]

A lot of Christian missionaries come to China under the pretext of teaching English. I met one a while ago, a Mormon. I haven't heard of any missionaries getting in trouble yet, though

Really? I was working with a Mormon at the time, and she specifically didn't proselytize because it was against the law. She told me that Mormons are prettty strict about obeying the local laws (I've read that elsewhere too). In any case, she was a great person who took her job seriously.

lilongyue, I think it's cool that you would be willing to translate stuff from local temples. I think a lot of foreigners who go to temples would be interested in getting some background about the traditions of that particular temple or particular practice.

[lilongyue]

Really? I was working with a Mormon at the time, and she specifically didn't proselytize because it was against the law. She told me that Mormons are prettty strict about obeying the local laws (I've read that elsewhere too). In any case, she was a great person who took her job seriously.

Yeah, this guy was really nice. He was being very discreet about it, he didn't say he was doing "The Work," but I saw him whip out the Bible, or maybe it was the Book of Mormon, and sit down and have long discussions with Chinese. He also down-played his level of Chinese a lot.

Most Mormons I've met have been really kind people, but to be honest I don't take kindly to Christian missionaries. I remember going to holy places in Thailand and ever tree, telephone pole and sign post for a mile or two in every direction was covered in Christian slogans. I think I was more upset than the Thai people, partly due to their laid back nature, and partly due to the fact that even though the signs were in Thai, they didn't really understand what "Christ's blood washes away your sins" means. Imagine going to some cathedral in France and and slapping Buddhist slogans all over the place . . .

[fireball9261]

It's funny some Christians believe everyone would understand their slogans without any explanation. That is the most common mistake of Christian missionaries in Asian countries.

[shibole]

Are you sure those signs were put up by foreign missionaries and not by Thai people who had been converted to Christianity?

[fireball9261]

They are probably done by both. We got a lot in Taiwan also. Most of time, they were done under the direction of the foreign missionaries and older Chinese Christians who were from generations of Christian families. I got people quoting bibles to me and my friends a lot, and they did not explain some of the basic concepts at all. They spoke them like Buddhists' chanting, and we listened to them like hearing Buddhists' chanting -- hearing without understanding. Then, the Christians blame these non-Christians for rejecting the gospel -- Well, if they don't understand, how can they accept it? If no one really explained to them without just quoting the slogans, how can they understand?

[lilongyue]

Are you sure those signs were put up by foreign missionaries and not by Thai people who had been converted to Christianity?

Most of that extreme Christian proselytizing in Thailand is done by fanatic Korean missionaries. Those people really go over the top. For example, when I was visiting a temple in Korea, a new Buddha Hall was being built. The other buildings in the temple were made of concrete, but the Buddha Hall was being done the traditional way, all wood. It was amazingly beautiful. There had to be a monk or nun sleeping inside of the temple at night because they were worried about fanatic Christians torching it. There had been buildings in other temples burned down by these wackos, some of the several hundred years old. While in Thailand, I also heard about missionaries driving around in trucks, blasting speeches and slogans over loud-speakers. I think they were also Korean.

Those same signs I saw at that holy place would pop up around the temple I stayed in, which was in Northeastern Thailand.. Every so often the abbot of the temple would recruit some laymen and have them drive around and take them down. When I talked with some of the monks about the Christians in Thailand, they told me that the some of the newspapers in Thailand were run by Thai Christians. They would take insignificant events, like a drug addict who was ordained as a monk and then took money and used it to buy drugs for himself, and put it on the front page. Something like that isn't front page news. It's obvious that is was just a dishonest person who slipped into a temple and was abusing the system. But the Christians running the newspaper would make a point of reporting every small event like that to tarnish the name of Buddhism.

I'm sure the foreign Christian missionaries work with the Thai Christians, but it seems that the really outrageous stuff is done by the foreigners, specifically Koreans.

[woliveri]

Hearing of things like this (Christians) really irks me. When I was teaching in a summer camp in Shanghai they had specific rules not allowing topics of Religion and Politics to be discussed in class. But when I came in to teach following another teacher I see Christian songs written on the black board.

But to be fair, I'm rather saddened by Buddism too. I met two Tibetian monks in HangZhou on my last visit and after a period of conversation (the spoke rather good English) I felt like I was talking to some Holy Roller Christians. They would scoff at any comment I made that didn't agree with their understanding of Buddism (like only they have the goods, everyone else is going down the wrong path).

I also went to a Taoist temple on the mountian behind Shangri-la in HangZhou only to find they just wanted you to light incense or a candle and pay money.

To be honest, if there is any sin that covers the earth, it's religion. I remember a slogan from a while back. It goes: Dear God, please protect me from your followers.

And I think that holds true, more than ever, today.

[woliveri]

lilongyue,

Isn't there a famous Buddhist temple there in HangZhou?

In fact, I think there are several?

[shibole]

I also went to a Taoist temple on the mountian behind Shangri-la in HangZhou only to find they just wanted you to light incense or a candle and pay money.

I think that's pretty normal if it's any sort of tourist temple. I've been to quite a few temples in China and it seems like there is nobody there teaching anything. People are just burning incense, praying, and banging on gongs and stuff, with the occasional monk yelling at people who engage in unapproved gong-banging.

I suspect you need to get out of the tourist areas to find the "real" temples if you want to see anything other than this, but that's just my guess.

[wushijiao]

Although I'm agnostic, I do believe that missionaries can play a positive role in any society. Of the missionaries that I have met in China (and granted I have not met too many) two groups of them were running an AIDS orphanage, and one man had an organization to help North Korean refugees escape to freedom, because if they were caught within China they would be repatriated and sent to the camps, or shot. The refugees go through a network that often includes months of hiding in Jilin in a safe house, or even a shack, or a hole in the ground, then using (Korean) missionaries as guides, they travel the few thousand miles towards the border with Laos, heading to Cambodia and on to Thailand. If they get caught on the way, they could lose their lives. The South Korean missionaries are often thrown in jail as well. In many ways they are just as brave as the people who ran the Underground Railroad network to help slaves escape the South before the Civil War.

Also, I think everybody has the right to be exposed to religion, and then decide for themselves whether or not they believe.

Also, in some ways, religious people have a hard time because any bad behavior on their part reflects badly not only on them, but on their whole religion.

Again, I'm not religious, and I do sometimes find religion to be annoying, but I do think that it's often easy to ignore some of the positive aspects religion can bring to a society.

[fireball9261]

I agree many of today's priests and believers from Christian, Buddhists, and Daoists religions behave very badly all over the world (in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong and other places), but there are also many good people.

I can't stand those Buddhist monks who look like they had a lot of nice meals -- the fatter they are, the worse I feel about them. Yes, they would look more like certain Buddha sculptures, but I don't think they really behave like Buddha necessarily -- I know I go for the appearances, but hey, how do someone get so fat on simple vegetarian food alone. Especially, they are not supposed to eat after lunch in the old tradition. My friend's grand uncle is a real monk. He went deep into the mountains to xio lien all the time, and he fasted a lot. He always donates money and other stuff his disciples gave him to other people and other monks and temple. He has helped many of his poor disciples in their educational expenses. He is also very thin. I respect him a lot even though I am not a Buddhist.

In addition, I was very mad whenever I heard the temples requested people to pay for lunch instead of donations. The temples are supposed to feed the hunger and the poor and not supposed to set a price for the meals they serve. When I was a child, we went to a temple for their famous vegetarian food. At the lunch time, there were many large tables set in the temple's court yard. Whenever 12 people filled up a table, the food was served. There were 10 very good vegetarian dishes plus 1 fried rice (or fried noodles) and 1 desert. They never asked for money. My father would go to the main temple and put in some money there. I asked my dad why didn't they charge money. My dad told me that was the tradition so that the poor could be fed. I asked how about someone always came to eat free food? My dad said, "The monks wouldn't say anything if you just come by a few times a month. If you come by for free food too much, they would give you bad looks and probably say something within your hearing to shame you. Not too many people have the guts or are so shameless to do that too often."

I have also heard a famous Taiwan Buddhist nun who likes to wear makeups and wear very revealing clothing. I just couldn't imagine anyone would treat her as a serious nun, but some did (and believe her to be a great master in Buddhism). When I went to a temple in the center of the Taiwan's Cross Island Highway, there was an essay posted (carved?) on the temple's wall about their head monk/nun(?) at that temple. The wording almost like he/she was the reincarnation of Buddha himself. I almost threw up just reading the essay. Of course, I did not donate to that temple!

The Daoist priests in Taiwan also had some interesting stories. One of the best stories was the one about selling the "Air of Righteousness". A Taiwan Daoist priest or Daoist temple was selling these "Air of Righteousness" to believers and tourists. It was basically a very nice looking sealed bottle with nothing in it. It was quite expensive for each bottle of nothing, and people bought them!

Then, there are the stories of vaious Masters in various religions (Buddhists, Daoists, Christians) who told their believers that they should either give them lots of money and properties or, in the case of young females, they should sleep with these great Masters! Again, some people believed them and did exactly what these Masters told them!

It's very unbelieveable!

On the other hand, many Buddhists, Daoists, and Christians had done many good deeds in mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. For example, the famous 慈濟 (ci2 ji4) organization. In addition, many Chinese girls lived because of the efforts of many Christian missionaries over the years. My own adopted aunt was one of them. She was a thrown away daughter who got rescued by the Christian missionaries in Hangzhou area during the early 20th century. They paid my grandmother to nurse her. When they came to pick her up after 3 years, my grandmother refused to let her go. Therefore, the missionaries let my grandmother keep her. Later, my grandparents married her to a nice farmer complete with the proper dowry. She became the main financial supporter (behind the back of her mother-in-law and with her husband's support) for my grandparents during the Japanese occupation when my grandparents' own children could not be around for 8 years. During the Chinese Civil War, my mother had to give up my elder sister who was a baby and very sick to the Christian Missionary Orphanage to try to keep her alive because my mother was a refugee and couldn't provide my sister the proper care she needed to live. I don't know where my sister is, but I am pretty sure she is probably alive because the Missionaries had the proper medicine and food and would be able to take care of her.

Furthermore, when I looked at some of the histories of the major Chinese Universities, I realize that many of them were funded by the Christian Missionaries. Many of the first girls' schools were also funded and established by the Christian Missionaries. Some of the early Chinese female leaders in the late 19th and early 20th centuries came out of those schools. I would say the Christian Missionaries had brought a lot of good things to China (even with some of the bad things, too).