Alveranter Posted May 23, 2004 at 12:24 PM Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 at 12:24 PM let me get this straight.. Un and Wen are two different syllables, am I right? It's not like Wen is just how Un is spelled when no vocal precedes it.. because they are pronounced differently, right?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted May 23, 2004 at 01:27 PM Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 at 01:27 PM there are two possible pronunciations for "un" 1. wen -- as in hun 魂 2. u:n -- yun 云 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibo77 Posted May 23, 2004 at 10:12 PM Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 at 10:12 PM Combinations iou>iou>iu (tone pitch accent falls on u) uei>uei>ui (tone pitch accent fals on i) uen>uen>un (tone pitch accent falls on u) "-i-" Finals Finals beginning with "-i-" cannot exist by itself, "y-" is added in front to produce the word of the same sound, some orthographic changes occur. i>yi ia>ya ie>ye iao>yao iu>you ian>yan in>yin iang>yang ing>ying iong>yong "-u-" Finals "-un" cannot exist by itself. "w-" is added in front, this applies to all the finals beginning with "-u-". u>wu ua>wa uo>wo uai>wai ui>wei uan>wan un>wen uang>wang ueng>weng (-ong) "-ü-" Finals ü>yu üe>yue üan>yuan ün>yun The "-ü" final can only exist after the initials "l-" and "n-". Only four syllables exist with "ü". (lü, lüe, nü, nüe) But after the other initials, b-,p-,m-,f-,d-,t-,g-,k-,h-,j-,q-,x-,zh-,ch-,sh-,r-,z-,c-,s-, The "ü" sound exists as "u". "ü" is the same as "yu", but not the same as "u" or "wu" "üe" is the same as "yue", but not the same as "ue", which doesn't exist. "üan" is the same as "yuan", but not the same as "uan". "ün" is the same as "yun", but not the same as "un". The "y-" in front of the "-ü" is only there to make the word look nice, and also to avoid triphthongs. (Mandarin speech does not allow triphthongs). 易经"i jing" becomes "yi jing" (i-ch'ing) In summary "-ü" after "y-" still retains the same sounds as before. "un" is the same as "wen" 文 "ün" is the same as "yun" 云 You can write "文un" or "云ün" instead if you wanted, and people would still read it the same way. But it is not a good Hanyu Pinyin style. That is all. Hanyu Pinyin works this way, that is why Zhuyin Fuhao works better and avoids these ambiguities. I hope this helped! -Shibo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ala Posted May 25, 2004 at 07:16 AM Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 at 07:16 AM If you mean un as in 困 kun, it would have the same rhyme as wen (kun would be like kwen). But un doesn't exist in pinyin by itself. This is the same thing as the wu/u debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taibei Posted May 26, 2004 at 02:04 PM Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 at 02:04 PM Some things might be a little confusing at first because of spelling conventions. But there are no ambiguities in Hanyu Pinyin on the syllable level. Perhaps the following chart will help: combinations of initials and finals in Hanyu Pinyin Be sure to read the notes below the chart. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alveranter Posted May 27, 2004 at 11:37 AM Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 at 11:37 AM oh.. so it's the same syllable.. but in one of my books, the author says that un as in hun and wen are pronounced differentely..in fact that they are two totally different syllables.. this makes me confused.. which one is correct..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibo77 Posted May 27, 2004 at 08:07 PM Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 at 08:07 PM un in hun, which Chinese character? wen, which Chinese character? 魂hun2 (initial "h" + final "uen2>un2") rhymes with "uen". 文wen2 (final "uen2>wen2" ) rhymes with "uen". Remember the finals, "iou" changes into "iu", but pronounced /iou/ "uei" changes into "ui", but pronounced /uei/ "uen" changes into "un", but pronounced /uen/ -Shibo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altair Posted May 27, 2004 at 11:30 PM Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 at 11:30 PM I thought that according to Chinese definitions, "hun" and "wen" have the same final, i.e., "uen." When "uen" is preceded by "h," then you drop the "e" to arrive at "hun." When "uen" is not preceded by an initial, then the "u" must be written as a "w," giving "wen." Is this not correct? A complicating issue may be that the pronunciation of some finals can change slightly according to environment. For instance, to my English ear, "wei" always sounds like the English word "way"; but I sometimes here "sui" pronounced like the "swee" in the English word "sweet." Could this be the problem with "hun" and "wen"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alveranter Posted May 30, 2004 at 02:00 PM Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 at 02:00 PM well because when I listen to my recordings etc it sounds like the ending in "hun" (for instance) is pronounced more like ohun while the ending in wen is pronounced uehn.. and I'm quite certain.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibo77 Posted May 30, 2004 at 07:31 PM Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 at 07:31 PM Sorry! Bad mistake. Altair is right, they have the same endings. The initials "w-" and "y-", are just for stylistic purposes. In Hanyu Pinyin, The final "-uen" changes into "wen" if used alone (问wen4). The final "-uen" changes into "-un" if preceded by an initial (论lun4). Pronounce both as one would pronounce "uen4". In Tongyong Pinyin, 问uen4 论luen4 Sorry again. -Shibo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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