多 vs 哆，Do they sound the same？

[monto]

Hi,everyone

Last time, I had a poll on 而 vs 二, that concerns with vowels.

My question this time concerns with consonants:

Are 多 and 哆 pronunced the same?

Of course, dictionary says yes. What's you feeling. Same? different ? How?

多少，多多少少

哆嗦，哆哆嗦嗦

你是不是认为这两个字，多多少少有些区别呢？

回答问题的时候，请勇敢些，不要哆哆嗦嗦！

[82riceballs]

What do you mean this "concerns consonants"? They both make a "d" sound and sound exactly the same (i think).

[monto]

Hi, 82riceballs,

Thanks for your answer.

My question is to some people may appear as meaningful as the question below:

Does "t" soud the same both in "top" and in "stop" ?

The question was put forward to have overall idea on how many (percentage) people could feel and tell the difference.

[tooironic]

Does "t" soud the same both in "top" and in "stop" ?

The question is a paradox. The 't's, of course, sound completely different to each other. However the question asking you to consider the 't' outside of the word that contains it. But, of course, the moment you take the 't' out of the word you lose the aural quality of the phoneme anyway. Therefore, you can't really state equivocally one way or the other whether they truly sound different or not.

[monto]

Hi, tooironic:

The "t" in my question stands for the letter. If it appeared to you as a phoneme, I am to blame because I failed to make it clear.

I write a phoneme differently. For example /t/ or [t].

Any way, thank you for your joining in.

[zhwj]

Are you trying to find out if the sounds are different by surveying the opinions of Mandarin speakers?

Or are the sounds in fact different, and you're trying to see whether Mandarin speakers are able to tell the difference?

If it's the second case, could you point to some references? I've read stuff about sound change in different contexts (like your earlier question about the vowel, or the allophones of /t/ in 'top' 'stop'), but I haven't come across anything that indicates that syllables that are ostensibly homophones are actually pronounced differently. What is the particular distinction between the initials of 多 and 哆?

[monto]

Hi, zhwj:

As matter of fact, I have definite answer of my own to the question. I am interested to know here how many foreigners agree with me and how many disagree with me.

I am doing the same questioning to my friends, colleagues if the situation allows and the idea comes up to my mind.

And I am also trying to do the same in some Chinese website.

I didn't forward my opinion because I fear that might effect the result.

[roddy]

To be honest I think you'll get better results if you just tell us what you think and then ask 'were you aware of that' or 'what do you think'. I'm not sure people are too keen on answering a question when they don't know what the question is. . .

[monto]

roddy ...........

Ok. So my question also changed into that : This my opinion, and do you feel the same?

There is a significant difference between pronunciations of 多 and 哆.

多 is pronounced with the muscles in the throat quite relaxed, while

哆 is with quite tightened, that I prefer to using [dd] for it.

Phonetically

the /d/ in 多 is called 松音 in Chinese, and that in 哆 called 紧音。I failed to find them in Chinese-English dictionaries (even a big one) but managed to get them in Google,

松音: lax phoneme

紧音: tense phoneme

but I am not sure they are accurate.

All the native Chinese I spoke to so far agree with me, though some of them said "same" at first, but finally agreed with me after repeatedly uttered both the character in both lax and tense way.

So much said, I'd like foreign friends here just tell me if you have the same feeling. I think my point of view is very easy to understand for Koreans as they have 5 pairs of such 松音 - 紧音 consonants that make difference in both character and meaning.

a small hint:

There is car manufacturer in South Korea called Ssangyong Motors. Why double s there? They don't mean to make themselves look strange. "Ssangyong", "双龙" in Chinese, means Double Dragon(s). If you drop one of the S's, it may mean totally differently.

I have same more opinions subtile about Chinese pronuciation. They are so subtile that so far I get only "no"s from my folks.

Maybe I should make self-introduction here.

1958 born in a family of Korean Nationality, learned and spoke Kerean only untill in

1964 brough to the Chinese class ( there was Korean class available), from primary to higher education (Master of Engineering) in Chinese. Learned English from the university time and on; had a few classes in Russian in high school; tried Japanese and German as second language in uni. Still Ok in daily Korean spoken, write badly.

So much is what I feel should say here.

Thank you all for your attention.

[tooironic]

Hmm, interesting.

What about accents? Dialectal influences? Or ideolects? Personal preferences?

Though I guess that all goes back to the olde "is there truly one standard Putonghua?" hehe

[monto]

tooironic:

... "is there truly one standard Putonghua?"....

Contemporaneously, Yas;

Historically, No.

Long long ago, the word 国家 （nation, country) was pronounce as [guoga] or something similar to that. And that was introduced into Korean peninsula and remained there anchanged. The pronunciation also remained unchanged or changed tilttle in many dielects of Chinese (such Cantonese), which in the language now called Putonghua it changed to sound [guojia].

Many characters and words have such stories. That is what we mean by:

There is no absolutely right thing in language historically, as it keeps changing. Isn't it the same in English?

But comtemporaneously, there are authorities, there is majority, so there is standard.