Altair Posted May 23, 2004 at 05:14 PM Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 at 05:14 PM When the "Er-ised" word ends in "-n", the final "-n" is deleted, and "-r" is assimilated in its place>> yi4 dian3 + er(-r) = yi4 diar3 "yi diar" not "yi dianr" No "n" sound at all, but "diar" In the Mainland, people say "yi diar" In Taiwan, people say "yi dian er" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Otherwise, it is simply added to the end of the word. Ending in -V (vowel) gao1 >> gaor1 Ending in -ng bang4 >> bangr4 What exactly are the rules of how to pronounce 儿化? What I learned was that adding an "er" to a word ending in an "n" causes deletion of the "n," as stated above. I also learned something similar for all diphthongs, so that 口袋儿里 would be pronounced as "koudarli." Is this incorrect? How does this compare with "gaor" above? Isn't 好好儿地 pronounced as "haoharde"? I also read that 歌儿 ger and 根儿 ge(n)r are pronounced differently. If this is true, how does this square with what is said about "diar" above? Does 门儿 me(n)r2 rhyme with 歌儿 or 根儿? I would say that 这儿 zher4 sounds like 这 zhe4 and 儿 run together as one syllable, i.e. like a subtle diphthong. Which words in this paragraph rhyme with 这儿? What about 事儿? How is this pronounced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibo77 Posted May 27, 2004 at 08:15 AM Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 at 08:15 AM No rules, just right.... Sorry for the late response, and sorry for my first post, I think that this is a difficult phenomenon to analyse. It's "北京方言Beijing dialect"(also in other Mandarin-speaking areas), and there exists not a rule for "R-coloring". This "R-coloring" is the most unstable aspect of the 北京方言Beijing dialect. It is evolving day by day, in my opinion... Each person has a different way to "R-colorise" their words. Randomly choose two people on a street in Beijing, and probably they would "R-colorise" their words differently. Also there isn't a rule on how to write these "R-colorised" words out in Hanyu Pinyin. 0) "R-colorisation" of words varies between each person and each area. I like to rate the scale as no R-colorisation(standard CCTV news braodcasts "Newspeak" ), to slight(perhaps a urban male employee), to extreme(perhaps a rural female farmer). This scale of "R-colorisation" is based on how much of the original "un R-colorised" word is deleted/assimilated. "-r" is added to the end of the word, so this deletion/assimilation process starts from the end of the 韵母final and moves towards the 声母initial. In the extreme of the scale, nothing but the initial of the "R-colorised" word is left. The rural female farmer might say, 土豆tu dou "potato" as 土豆儿tu dr 1) 儿-r is added to the end of characters. Only one character/syllable can be "R-colorised" in a word. For example, 绘画hui hua + 儿er > 绘画儿hui huar Note 绘hui is not "R-colorised", only one of the characters is "R-colorised", 画hua>huar. 2) 韵母Finals ending in "-n" (-an, -en, -ian, -in, -uan, -uen, -üan, -ün) loose their "-n". For example, 玩wan + 儿er > 玩儿war Note the "-n" in "玩wan" is deleted, and r is added directly after the vowel. 3) 韵母Finals ending in "-ng" (-ang, -eng, -ong, -iang, -ing, -iong, -uang, -ueng) loose their "-ng", the vowel is nasalised (aŋ, oŋ, eŋ, iŋ, uŋ > ã, õ, ẽ, ï with tilde, ü with tilde). For examples, 绳sheng + 儿er > 绳儿shẽr 情qing + 儿er > 情儿q(ï with tilde)r 4) 韵母Finals with diphthongs, triphthongs, deletes one of the vowels, also done by combining two of the vowels into one. I don't know how to explain yet. 5) The tone contour adjusts to the "R-colorised" word. Mandarin Citation Tones=Universal Tone Contour 1=55, 2=35, 3=214, 4=51, 5(or 0)=11 55 + 儿35 > 44, 22, 11 35 + 儿35 > 34 214 +儿35 > 213, 41 51 + 儿35 > 41 11 + 儿35 > 51 6) Also, some words are "R-colorised", while others are not. "玩wan2 to play" is "R-colorised, but, "完wan2 to end, to finish" is not. "玩过wan2 guo4 played(before)", when used as a verb is "R-colorised", but, "玩具wan2 ju4 toy", when used as an adjective, is not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 事shi51 + 儿er35 > 事儿shïr41 One has to realise that ㄦer is a 韵母final, but it somehow was taken off the finals chart in dictionaries from the mainland. It still is considered a final in Taiwan. Chinese linguists do not separate a word phonological by consonants and vowels (diphthongs, triphthongs...), but by initials and finals, so a "final"(that has disappeared as a final in the mainland) would be more appropriate than a "subtle diphthong", for Chinese anyways. Rhyme, I suppose maybe that you meant "which words after 'R-colorisation' have finals that have the same IPA values (finals that sound the same after 'R-colorisation)". One has to realise that the above rules are not rules at all, but observations (descriptive grammar for a dialect). There exists many variations because this "R-colorisation" aspect is at the forefront of 北京方言Beijing dialect's evolution. Here is a survey's results: (It used 跟gen55 instead of 根gen55, but same sounds) 歌ge55 was "R-colorised" variously as 歌儿gïr or geir (I say gïr) 跟gen55 was "R-colorised" variously as 跟儿geir, gïr, genr (I say geir) Instances when 歌儿=跟儿, whether "gïr=gïr" or "geir=geir", surveyed to Beijingners, rural and urban, 10.37% (林焘、沈炯). Very small instance when they are said the same, "rhyme". But instances when (-a, -ia, -ua)=(-anr(-air), -ianr, -uanr(uair)) rises to 83%. It means that, possibly, the differences in the sounds of "R-colorised" -a, -ia, -ua, and -an(-ai), -ian, -uan(-ua), they are combining in the 北京方言Beijing dialect, are being phased out. (林焘、沈炯) For example, (刀)把(dao55) ba214 and (花)瓣(hua55) ban51 > (刀)把儿=(花)瓣儿 (dao55) bar41= (hua55) bar41 blade of knife = petal of flower ... it could get dangerous -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are many more studies done by linguists into this. I am not an expert at my native tongue, I think that most people knows very little about their own native language... Anyways maybe 37degN can help you. -Shibo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galitonwu Posted May 27, 2004 at 11:34 AM Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 at 11:34 AM In my opinion, the skill of reading 儿化音 is same with 连读（how to translate）. We read "you are" is "you're"。 then you could read "事儿"——"shi er"——"shir". Just quickly and quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altair Posted May 28, 2004 at 12:38 AM Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 at 12:38 AM Thanks for the very interesting and quite surprising responses. In my opinion, the skill of reading 儿化音 is same with 连读（how to translate）. I would guess that 连读 means "reading smoothly" We read "you are" is "you're"。 then you could read "事儿"——"shi er"——"shir". Just quickly and quickly Although I do not think this works for all cases, I know realize it certainly applies to some. I wish someone had told me this earlier. I learned to pronounce a word like "zher4" incorrectly, as if it rhymed with the "ger" in "germ." On my tapes, it sounds like "zhe" squished together with the "ger" in "germ." "R-colorisation" of words varies between each person and each area. I had never read this and am somwhat surprised. Thanks for the detailed. 4) 韵母Finals with diphthongs, triphthongs, deletes one of the vowels, also done by combining two of the vowels into one. I don't know how to explain yet. I had never heard of combining the vowels, but this is indeed what I here with "zher." In a word like 香味儿, I thought that this was always pronounced as xiang1 wer4. 韵母Finals ending in "-ng" (-ang, -eng, -ong, -iang, -ing, -iong, -uang, -ueng) loose their "-ng", the vowel is nasalised (aŋ, oŋ, eŋ, iŋ, uŋ > ã, õ, ẽ, ï with tilde, ü with tilde). For examples, 绳sheng + 儿er > 绳儿shẽr 情qing + 儿er > 情儿q(ï with tilde)r What value does "ï" have? Does this sound like the "i" in the English word "sick" or Cantonese 食 sik6? 5) The tone contour adjusts to the "R-colorised" word. Mandarin Citation Tones=Universal Tone Contour 1=55, 2=35, 3=214, 4=51, 5(or 0)=11 55 + 儿35 > 44, 22, 11 35 + 儿35 > 34 214 +儿35 > 213, 41 51 + 儿35 > 41 11 + 儿35 > 51 I find this truly stunning information. I have never seen this anywhere. I can't wait to try to listen for all of these changes. It means that, possibly, the sounds of "R-colorised" -a, -ia, -ua, and -an(-ai), -ian, -uan(-ua), are being phased out. (林焘、沈炯 Excuse me, but I do not quite catch your meaning here. What exactly is getting phased out? These particular sounds followed by "r"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibo77 Posted May 30, 2004 at 08:16 PM Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 at 08:16 PM liaison -- 连读 "ㄦ音化R-colorisation" -- "捲舌音化rhotacisation" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry for the explanation, is this better? > It means that, possibly, the difference of the sounds of "R-colorised" -a, -ia, -ua, and the sounds of "R-colorised" -an(-ai), -ian, -uan(-ua), are being phased out. They are combining into one "R-colorised" pronounciation. (林焘、沈炯) This means that many rhotacised words with a final of "-an" will have the same sound as a rhotacised one ending in "-a", 把儿 equals 瓣儿. While rhotacised "-e" and rhotacised "-en" are still distinct, 歌儿 doesn't equal 跟儿. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which zhe? "这zhe4 -this"? "这zhe4 -this" is never rhotacised. "这zhei4 -this (one)" is rhotacised into "这儿zher4" (one of the vowels is deleted). 食 is sit9 in 粤Yue(Cantonese), 9 -低入声Low Enter Tone(阳入声Yang Enter Tone). In fact all -p, -t, -k finals are citation tones 7,8,9... Anyways, " ï " is >>>> " i " IPA trilled. Ask a native Beijingner to say: "little flag" 小旗 xiao3 qi2 with the rhotacisation, listen to the "旗儿 qïr". This is "trilled 'i'". "sympathy" 人情 ren2 qing2 with the rhotacisation, listen to the "情儿 q(ï with tilde)r". This is "trilled 'i' nasalised" Compare one's pronounciation of these "un-rhotacisable" words: "aunt" 姨 yi2. This is "i". "to win" 赢 ying2. This is "ing". In rhotacised words, many Beijingners' pronounciation: Words with final "-i" > changes to "ï", which is trilled "i". Words with final "-ing" > changes to "ï with tilde", which is trilled "i" nasalised. Sorry for the "ï with tilde" hassel... It's really difficult for a normal person to distinguish the tone contours. Most people are trained over 2 years simply listening to the differences between the black and white keys on a piano. To distinguish 34, 43, or 34, 45. You might notice Guan:Taipei say 44, Guan:Beijing say 55 for the first tone. Most people simply use a software to analyse the tone contours. -Shibo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibo77 Posted July 8, 2004 at 02:18 PM Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 at 02:18 PM This is a nice page that explains the "r-colouring" a bit. Scroll down to "Rules given in terms of English pronunciation". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin#Pronunciation -Shibo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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