Retroflex r in American English and Mandarin

[Prase]

Spun off from this discussion.

Many speakers have retroflex r, just not so strong as in Mandarin. The Mandarin one is IMO often closer to retroflex Z.

There are not any words that highlight it, some people simply use retroflex r everywhere. It is recognisable, the retroflex one sounds stronger. There is also a way to test it on yourself:

A way to test this to make sure is to make the r sound at the beginning of a word (like "red"), but hold the r. Next, take a pencil or toothpick and slide it into your mouth until it touches your tongue. If it touches the bottom of your tongue, you're retroflex. If it touches the top, bunched.

-Ben

(quoted from http://www.omniglot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=266&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 )

[Prase]

So, if your r is retroflex, these two things could work (it depends on how much retroflex it is, though):

To get mandarin r, take your r and move your tongue up (and maybe also front) a little.

To get pinyin sh, start with r and press your tongue up (front) and make the sound unvoiced.

I wonder if it works or not. If you have retroflex r, you can try it.

[renzhe]

Many speakers have retroflex r, just not so strong as in Mandarin. The Mandarin one is IMO often closer to retroflex Z.

I think that this is the crucial difference. The Mandarin r sounds like a cross between the "American" retroflex r and the ending of the French word "mirage". If you use the American "r", you sound like, well, an American

Then again, there are Chinese people who seem to roll their r, or "v" their "w", so there are variations

Actually, thinking about it, the -er suffix in er hua sounds exactly like the American retroflex r. But not the initial. It's really complicated. I just try to emulate what I hear and it seems to work well

[Prase]

The Mandarin r sounds like a cross between the "American" retroflex r and the ending of the French word "mirage". If you use the American "r", you sound like, well, an American

That is what I said in the sentence you quoted, I said more precisely retroflex Z. There is not any hard boundary between aproximants and fricatives. Fricatives are just more constricted, so the air makes noise.

Retroflex Z: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Voiced_retroflex_fricative.ogg

For example Russian Ж: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_alphabet

[renzhe]

You are right, I was just translating it to myself, cause I'm really not that up to speed with the terminology you're using.

[atitarev]

I think that this is the crucial difference. The Mandarin r sounds like a cross between the "American" retroflex r and the ending of the French word "mirage".

I don't agree. There are 2 distinct sounds in Mandarin, both represented by "r". The initial "r" is what you describe. (热 rè), use [ʐ] or [ɻ] . The final er as in 女儿 nǚ'ér is a different sound - [ɚ], identical to Ameican rhotic R.

Standard Mandarin also uses a rhotic consonant, /ɚ/. This usage is a unique feature of Standard Mandarin; other dialects lack this sound. In Chinese, this feature is known as Erhua. There are two cases in which it is used:

1. In a small number of words, such as 二 "two", 耳 "ear", etc. All of these words are pronounced as [ɑɚ] with no initial consonant.

2. As a noun suffix (Traditional: -兒, Simplified: -儿). The suffix combines with the final, and regular but complex changes occur as a result.

The "r" final must be distinguished from the retroflex semi-vowel written as "ri" in the pinyin spelling and represented either by <ʐ> or <ɻ> in IPA. Saying "The star rode a donkey," in English, or "Wo nü-er ru yiyuan" (My daughter entered the hospital), will make it clear that the first "r" in either case is said with a relatively lax tongue, whereas the second "r" sounds both involve a very active curling of the tongue and contact with the top of the mouth.

In other dialects of Mandarin, the rhotic consonant is sometimes replaced by another syllable, such as "li" in words that indicate locations. For example, "zher" and "nar" become "zhe li" and "na li", respectively.

Se more on Érhuà (儿化):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhua

[renzhe]

I know, I said that in the same post lol.

[atitarev]

Ah Yes, sorry, I missed the last sentence.