Is mimicing the best way to learn good pronounciation?

[Chinese Learner]

Hi,

I have a dilemna, I am Eurasian so I can speak Cantonese nearly fluently with a very slight English accent (as well as English and French both of which I do speak fluently and fairly accentless; the French with a very, very slight English accent). I have picked up 'survival' putonhua fairly quickly in the last 3 months - I can understand more than I can say - now I can manage really basic things to get around Beijing and I am starting to have longer and longer conversations.

However I just can't seem to get rid of my Cantonese accent - this really bugs me though I knowe it shouldn't! It's pride I know!!!! I am quite pleased that I can speak three languages with very slight accents but I hate the fact that I am orally mangling Putonghua. I sometimes feel sorry for the Beijingers who have to listen to me destroy their language!

What can I do to get as close to a standard accent as possible - I know that to obtain a perfect non-foreign accent will be impossible but getting close would be great.

Is the only method to constantly mimic teachers like an unthinking robot...over and over again until you get sentences right?

Thanks for any thoughts!

[heifeng]

congrats on your quest to improve your putonghua..

I think that mimicking can be a good way, but may not be the absolute 'best way'....at least not at the beginning.

I think that the processes would be a lot more efficient if you perhaps took a 'jiuyin' class with an experienced teacher to improve your pronounciation and fix some fundamental pronunciation problems. You probably need to figure out the mechanics of where you should put what for your zh chi shi, z, c, s, x, j...etc. Then after you are better aware of why you are saying something incorrectly you will be able to fix your pronunciation more and more on your own. Ideally the class shouldn't be mindless because (even if you take it with other students) you should be thinking about why what you are saying is incorrect, as well as other students and training your own listening skills...etc.

There are many posts on this forum about reading along with recordings and such too that you may want to reference, which is basically mimicking the reader. However if you plan to mimic an actual local, make sure they actually speak relatively standard mandarin before you completely 'trust' his/her pronunciation hehe...

However, since it sounds like you haven't had great experience with teachers, there are also books for the putonghua shuiping ceshi for hk residents and macao region students that you may want to reference too, but I don't know how much better listening to the PCS CD's are and imitating them in comparison to taking a class with a teacher.

Hope this helps...

[imron]

Another good trick is to record your own voice. This can make you aware (sometimes quite acutely) of exactly where your problems are.

[roddy]

Learning some phonetics will help - how sounds are produced, where the bits of your mouth should be for each sound, etc - that'll help you figure out what sounds you are making, and what you need to do to change that to the sounds you should be making.

But to be honest, you probably still need lots of time with someone who can tell you when you are wrong, and ideally why.

[renzhe]

A class or two with a good teacher will probably help you a lot. Go over pinyin, the tones, the proper pronunciation of things like zh, ch, sh, and other sounds that aren't used in Cantonese.

If you have a Cantonese accent like you say, then it's probably exactly these things giving you trouble.

[Lu]

Agreeing with others, taking a class on the specifics on Beijing pronounciation should help a lot. It's quite possible that since no one ever told you how exactly those sounds are made, you approach them not from a Mandarin perspective but from a Cantonese (or European) one, and so you need to learn the Mandarin perspective or you'll likely never get it right.

It's not too hard, so good luck and I'm sure you'll improve soon!

[Chinese Learner]

Hi ,

Thanks for all the replies! I have had private teachers and now I am in a class. I am actually not too bad with pronouncing my initials now after 3 months of bugging teh hell out of my teachers etc. and after much practice - speaking a few languages did actually help alot. Though many teachers gave me completely different ways to make an 'r'.

My problem is remembering tones and also the 'melody/rhythm' how I speak. When in class - I can repeat what the teacher says more or less. As soon as I am having a conversation with someone 'on my own', I hear my tones flattening out and the 'rhythm' of my speech becoming a 'guangdong ren's'

This is why I am asking if copying the 'rhythm' of Putonghua sentences is the best way to go.

The rhythm of my sentences is completely wrong and I can never seem to make my fourth tone distinct enough. Most people inform me my speech is flat ('ping') - I'm just so used to the rhythm and sound of Cantonese - I'm quite a fast talker so it's a reflex. I keep trying to remind myself to speak slowly but I always forget.

I find this quite funny as I can immediately tell when a beifang ren is speaking Cantonese so I am intrigued as to how my nanfang accent sounds to a beifang ren.

I think I will record my voice.

[Lu]

I was taught the r- as: in between the French j- as in Jean or je and the American r- as in right. I hope that helps, and doesn't add yet another explanation :-)

Seems Cantonese speakers have trouble with the 4th tone, they say the 1st instead. I had a classmate who did that too. But now you know it you can pay extra attention to it, that should help.

[renzhe]

Strange. I thought that the tones and "melody" of Cantonese would be much more of a challenge than Mandarin.

But yeah, in terms of "melody" and "rhythm", I find that mimicking and lots of practice is the best way to do it. The things I pronounce the best are the things I've heard the most and said the most, not the things where I can remember the tone number.

[AxelManbow]

My Chinese is poor. Yet pronunciation... do it like a local. Non standard yet so much more natural. My Chinese sucks big time yet withought looking at me no taxi driver thinks I'm non-Chinese. With a very standard accent that wouldn't be the case.

Get a bunch of local friends and 讲话。

[heifeng]

My problem is remembering tones and also the 'melody/rhythm' how I speak. When in class - I can repeat what the teacher says more or less. As soon as I am having a conversation with someone 'on my own', I hear my tones flattening out and the 'rhythm' of my speech becoming a 'guangdong ren's'

maybe this thread will help for some more suggestions since even if your tones are not the same as a typical laowai, it sounds like you are having similar problems when trying to speak out of class...but just in the opposite, or super fast/inaccurate direction:wink:

[atitarev]

As Heifeng put it, the problem with Cantonese speakers speaking Putonghua is the initials (mainly zh, z, ch, c, j, q, s, sh and r) and that's where the focus should be.

Sometimes it's not the ability to pronounce but knowing what it should be, so knowledge of pinyin for each character is important.

I am working together on improving my Chinese with a Cantonese student, surprisingly I can pronounce some initials better, at first she confused even "jiao" and "zao", now it's mainly distinguishing z vs zh, c vs ch, sometimes s vs sh. Her tones, characters, language in general are much better though, however, she often fails to notice the difference between those initials. First thing, you need to master pronunciation of the initials in isolation, then, need to know the pinyin spelling of the word, to know exactly how to pronounce a particular word.

Many textbooks come with initials drills. I use New Practical Chinese Reader but it can be any of the textbooks with similar drills.

Some talking electronic dictionaries (if you have access) are not bad to get the pronunciation of single words, then you can listen to sentences and whole texts. Don't get embarrassed to ask someone to correct your pronunciation. Walk before you run.

[Eric Z.]

Mimicing definitely helps good pronunciation, but it can be a very unnatural way to learn. TALKING with whomever has the accent you wish to learn is the best way to acclimatize yourself to that mode of speaking. If you are 'in country' this is a no-brainer--living in Shanhai talking to Shanghai locals, you'll pick up local flavor. Living in Beijing--same thing.

If you're not in China (like me currently), you need to find some way to practice with people that talk how you want to talk. I'm sure a lot of people had the same experience as me, where all the teachers in school are Taiwanese and then you move to Beijing and are like...wtf.