Worst Chinese dynasty?

[Ian_Lee]

Tommy79:

If you want to argue that Sourthern Song already faces threat from Jin Empire since its establishment. Then Ming survive much longer than northern Song and Sourthern song, the Ming was already faces the mongol threat in 1449 but remain untoppled until the internal rebellion that bring down the dynasty in 1644.Sourthern Ming survive until 1662.

I am afraid your calculation is wrong.

Northern Song was under nomadic threat as early as the 3rd emperor -- Zhenzong period. As early as A.D. 1002, the Tangut-established Xixia attacked Song and Zhenzong had to dispatch 80,000 troops to defend the frontier.

Song completely collapsed in 1279. But by 1002 it was already under nomadic threat. So Song withstood for 277 years. Ming was under Mongol threat as early as 1449. It completely collapsed in 1644. So Ming only withstood for 195 years.

Historian never consider Southern Ming as a dynasty because it was not a single entity.

I guess the reason is that Southern Ming collapsed so fast that it could hardly be qualified to be called dynasty or kingdom.

You got it wrong. You have to remember that not all Han chinese support the rebel. Most of the rebellion happen in the northern china which is a poor region and greatly depend on Sourthern china for support.

You also got it wrong here. The province that was devastated most was Sichuan by the Zhang rebellion. Sichuan is neither northern nor southern China. And of course Sichuan was not a poor region.

Foreign invaders - Chakhar Mongols, Russia, Tibet

Your view is deviating from mainstream Chinese historians.

The fighting among Han, Tibetan, Mongol and Manchus were merely the power games in between China's different ethnic groups in China's political arena over the past 5,000 years. But now you classify Chahar Mongols and Tibetans with Russians as "foreigners". This is a fallacy that most Chinese historians will vehemently disagree with.

[tommy79]

I am afraid your calculation is wrong.

Northern Song was under nomadic threat as early as the 3rd emperor -- Zhenzong period. As early as A.D. 1002, the Tangut-established Xixia attacked Song and Zhenzong had to dispatch 80,000 troops to defend the frontier.

Song completely collapsed in 1279. But by 1002 it was already under nomadic threat. So Song withstood for 277 years. Ming was under Mongol threat as early as 1449. It completely collapsed in 1644. So Ming only withstood for 195 years.

Xi Xia dynasty wasn't even exists at that time. Only in 1038, Yuanhao proclaimed himself the head of new dynasty.

As I said, the Ming dynasty officially fall in 1644 but it took Qing another 40 years to put down Southern Ming resistance and Taiwan. After doing further reading, the Ming already faces mongol threat as early as 1368. So, It actually took 315 years to bring down the Ming (1368-1683). Even if you consider the threat begin 1449, it still took 234 years to completely topple Ming. Why you only use song dynasty ? Song dynasty was second longest dynasty in chinese history and Ming come in third. Qin, Jin, Sui, Yuan, Qing all have shorter years compare to Ming dynasty.

Credit to connan of destroyers

"In 1368 a Mongol army outside Luoyang was soundly beaten by Chinese forces.

In 1370 Xu Da shattered Koko Temur's army and captured 86,000 Mongols. The same year, Li Wenzhong defeated a Yuan army at Yingchang, capturing 53,000 soldiers and the Yuan emperor's son.

In 1388 Lan Yu defeated a Mongol army at lake Buyur, recieving the surrender of 77,000 enemy soldiers."

Your view is deviating from mainstream Chinese historians.

The fighting among Han, Tibetan, Mongol and Manchus were merely the power games in between China's different ethnic groups in China's political arena over the past 5,000 years. But now you classify Chahar Mongols and Tibetans with Russians as "foreigners". This is a fallacy that most Chinese historians will vehemently disagree with.

If you apply in todays term, then you're right. However, if you consider that time, Tibetan and Mongol are all foreigners to China. The full intergration of Tibet and Mongol into China does not happen well into Qiang Long reign. Before QIng, these tibetan and Mongol was always considered as foreigners.

You also got it wrong here. The province that was devastated most was Sichuan by the Zhang rebellion. Sichuan is neither northern nor southern China. And of course Sichuan was not a poor region.

Sichuan is a region suitable for hiding ground because it it hard to detect by Ming. Even when QIng conquer Sichuan, they keep faces significant resistance from the people. The two large scale of rebellion happen during QIang long reign 1747-1749 and 1771-1776 and these two rebellion was Qing most costly wars among QIang long 10 campaigns.