Erhua (儿化）considered standard in Mandarin?

[renzhe]

Not neili, but neige. Same with zhe/zhei

[chrix]

What about nège? This can also be used as a hesitational particle, I need to add it to my list, which now has grown to 7 already

EDIT: a bit was discussed here already: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/135-foreigner-arrested-for-taking-photos84

[Daan]

Good idea to make a list, chrix. Here are the pronunciations I think I've heard:

1. 那 adverb "so"

nà

2. "there"

2a 那裡 nàli

2b 那邊 nàbian nèibian nèibiar nèibiār (1)

2c 那兒 nàr

2d 那 nà

3. "where"

3a 哪裡 náli

3b 哪邊 nǎbian něibian něibiar něibiār (1)

3c 哪兒 nǎr

3d 哪 nǎ

4. 那個 "this"

nàge nèige nège (1)

5. 哪個 "which"

nǎge něige

6. 那麼 "that + Adj"

nàme (and perhaps also nème, not sure)

7. 那個 "hesitational particle"

nàge nèige

(1) = I think I heard the last form a couple of times in BJ, but I'm not sure how standard this is.

[Shi Tong]

Wow..

Seems like my experience is completely different, I will use zhuyin:

ㄋㄜㄋㄚㄟㄧ

1. 那 adverb "so"ㄋㄜ4th

2. "there"

2a 那裡 ㄋㄜ4th ㄌㄧ(light tone or 3rd)

2b 那邊 ㄋㄟ4th ㄅㄧㄢ1st and also nèibiār, which includes the erhua. (1)

2c 那兒 nàr (not heard this one spoken in Taiwan, this is an erhua version)

2d 那 ㄋㄜ4th

3. "where"

3a 哪裡 ㄋㄚ2nd ㄌㄧ(light tone or 3rd)

3b 哪邊 ㄋㄚ3rd ㄅㄧㄢ1st -- not heard any of these: něibian něibiar něibiār (1) though understand them.

3c 哪兒 ㄋㄚ3rd ㄦ2nd.

3d 哪 ㄋㄚ2nd or 3rd.

4. 那個 "this"

ㄋㄜ4thㄍㄜ (light).

In terms of nèige, I always consider it to be 那ㄧ個, sounds like ㄋㄟ4th ㄧ1st ㄍㄜ (light).

5. 哪個 "which"

nǎge(ㄋㄚ3rd) něige (ㄋㄟㄍㄜ (light)) Finally one we agree on.

6.那麼

ㄋㄜ4thㄇㄜ (light)

7. 那個 "hesitational particle"

ㄋㄜ4thㄍㄜ (light). I think there is the occasional ㄋㄟ4th ㄧ1st ㄍㄜ (light), but only rarely.

Then there's the Taiwanese version (ㄏㄧ4th ㄌㄝ) which comes out too!!

Shi Tong, the question is not whether you have been saying it that way, but if native speakers other than your wife have actually been saying it that way.

I probably know about 100 Taiwanese people, family and outside, and they "all" pronounce these words in this way. There is variation, I agree, but if they're all either saying it wrong, or they're using colloquial variants, then that's the way they say it.

Oh, and my wife is a linguist with an MA in English and her Mandarin is exceptional, without the usual Taiwanese problems, so I'm sure that she's usually right.

[chrix]

I probably know about 100 Taiwanese people, family and outside, and they "all" pronounce these words in this way. There is variation, I agree, but if they're all either saying it wrong, or they're using colloquial variants, then that's the way they say it.

Oh, and my wife is a linguist with an MA in English and her Mandarin is exceptional, without the usual Taiwanese problems, so I'm sure that she's usually right.

I'm not talking about your wife's qualifications, but given the variation in language, it's never a good idea to base one's judgement of what is commonly said on the speech of one person.

Interesting, with one or two differences, my experiences match Daan's. I guess it must be some kind of variation then.

[renzhe]

My experience mostly matches Daan's too.

I've never heard nà or nǎ instead of nàr and nǎr, though, and I've heard nème for 那麼 often. Also, to me, nàge sounds considerably more formal than nèige. I mostly hear it from newscasters or when people are reading outloud.

Keep in mind that you are all more Taiwan based than me, and I have more exposure to Mainland materials.

[Shi Tong]

I'm not talking about your wife's qualifications, but given the variation in language, it's never a good idea to base one's judgement of what is commonly said on the speech of one person.

Interesting, with one or two differences, my experiences match Daan's. I guess it must be some variation then.

Problem being is that (again) we cant get a varification from the horses' mouth what is "correct", or in fact, what is in more common useage. Funny that your experiences are generally different from mine.

Also, I dont base what I know all on one person, as I said, I have loads of Taiwanese friends etc. I even had along weekend speaking all Mandarin because we had two Taiwanese friends come and stay.

Maybe I'll quiz them next time on the pronunciation of nege and see where I get.. but then, that would only give me a straw poll of 3:lol:

[Daan]

Thanks for your replies, everyone. chrix, what are the differences between your list and mine? Here's an updated list.

1. 那 adverb "so"

nà

ST nè

2. "there"

- 2a 那裡 nàli

ST nèli nèlǐ

- 2b 那邊 nàbian nèibian nèibiar nèibiār (1)

ST nèibiān nèibiār

- 2c 那兒 nàr

ST nàr

- d 那 nà

ST nè

RZ not heard

3. "where"

- 3a 哪裡 náli

ST náli nálǐ

- 3b 哪邊 nǎbian něibian něibiar něibiār (1)

ST nǎbiān

- 3c 哪兒 nǎr

ST nǎ'ér but are you sure there's a tone on the 兒 suffix?!

- 3d 哪 nǎ

ST ná nǎ

RZ not heard

4. 那個 "this"

nàge nèige nège (1)

ST nège nèiyīge

5. 哪個 "which"

nǎge něige

ST nǎge něige

6. 那麼 "that + Adj"

nàme nème

ST nème

7. 那個 "hesitational particle"

nàge nèige

ST nège, also rarely nèige

(1) = probably BJ usage?

Shi Tong, are you certain there's a third tone on the 裡 in 哪裡 and 那裡?

[chrix]

just nege as an option for hesitational particle.

[Shi Tong]

ST nǎ'ér but are you sure there's a tone on the 兒 suffix?!

I usually pronounce 兒 in second tone, and as far as I remember, when there's erhua involved, the er makes it second tone.. I remember my wife saying that the "huier" part in "take a break" or "xiu xi yi huier" in mainland Chinese was pronounced huier2, however, I would have thought that she would easily get this wrong because she's Taiwanese.

兒is definately 2nd tone though.. right....??

Shi Tong, are you certain there's a third tone on the 裡 in 哪裡 and 那裡?

I'd probably revise that and say that I reckon it's light tone, since it's very short, unlike third. It does sound a bit like 3rd, I'm sure you know what I mean!

[renzhe]

兒 has second tone when it means "child" or something related to that meaning, like 兒子 érzi, or 女儿 nǚ'ér.

It doesn't carry a tone when used to denote erhua. It simply modifies the ending of the previous syllable. It doesn't do anything to the tone.

I'd probably revise that and say that I reckon it's light tone, since it's very short, unlike third. It does sound a bit like 3rd, I'm sure you know what I mean!

The neutral tone is notorious for having many different pronunciations.

一会儿 is pronounced yíhuìr on the Mainland, or at least this is what the dictionaries and textbooks list. In practice, 会 might also carry the third tone (like in Taiwan), but I'm not sure how common this is, and how it relates to the local dialects, and whether it's a carryover from Taiwanese dramas or whatnot.

I don't think that it can ever have the second tone, though.

[Daan]

I usually pronounce 兒 in second tone, and as far as I remember, when there's erhua involved, the er makes it second tone.. I remember my wife saying that the "huier" part in "take a break" or "xiu xi yi huier" in mainland Chinese was pronounced huier2, however, I would have thought that she would easily get this wrong because she's Taiwanese.

兒is definately 2nd tone though.. right....??

I believe the Beijing pronunciation of 一會兒 is yíhuìr as opposed to Taiwanese yìhuǐr, but I'm not sure. I don't think I've ever heard a form *yìhuír.

ér as in érzi 'son' is of course written as 兒子. Here 兒 represents a stand-alone syllable and is pronounced as ér. However, when 兒 is used to represent an -r suffix in writing, it's not actually used to write a syllable any more, but merely indicates the final of the syllable before it. That syllable generally (always?) keeps its original tone.

edit: renzhe beat me to it

[Shi Tong]

hah:clap

会 or 會 is pronounced as 4th tone in Taiwan too, as far as I'm concerned.

Either way, the Taiwanese say "yi2xia4", (or, directly translated as one down), instead of 一會兒, so that's why we wouldn't know how to truly pronounce it!

[chrix]

會 is a 破音字 in Taiwan, as this is based on the traditional usage of the Mandarin standard from around the 1920s. So third tone on the mainland might reflect traditional usage, as it seems that the BJ standard now prescribes 4th tone.

We have a good way of checking what the TW standard says, namely the MOE dictionary, which indeed has third tone, and third tone only.

一會兒 is one of those words that on this thread I've called "lipservice 兒化 words", widely used in writing in Taiwan, and cropping up in conversation from time to time, though it depends on the person obviously.

[renzhe]

一下 is used on the Mainland too, and it has a slightly different meaning than 一会儿, at least to me. And additional meanings too.

[chrix]

FWIW, I've been told by a Taiwanese person to use 過了一下 instead of 過了一會兒...

[Hofmann]

Time to take a break from serious discussion and read an encyclopedia article about Mandarin.

[Shi Tong]

FWIW, I've been told by a Taiwanese person to use 過了一下 instead of 過了一會兒...

I think that would be like-- and please accept my appologies for pinyin and Hanzi together..

jie4 過一下 for "excuse me" when you're trying to walk past someone.

Just thought I'd add this into the discussion.. this is what I have in my Shiting Huayu and my 3000 chinese character dictionary.. both say the same and both are published in Taiwan and/ or by Taiwanese people.

As you can see, Hui is definately described as Hui4. I was talking to my wife yesterday, and she said that some people do say hui3, but since it's in the dictionary and in my teaching materials as hui4 and I've never even heard hui3 before, I would have thought that it's correct.

Na and Nei are as I expected- I remember my teacher asking me to say "nei3 guo2 ren2", and I said I thought na3 was better (in my arrogant way), and she said that it was also fine.

Zhe4 Zhei4/ Zhe4i1, again, no surprises there for me. I think the reason I hear zhe4i1 comes from when people are trying to specify which one, because this is like "this one" (zhe4 yi1 (ge)) and it tends to get a bit mashed together.

Na4 Na4li and Na4me are all a bit of a surprise to me. I think most people pronounce these as ne4 in Taiwan. I think you can certinaly get away with both, unless I've been saying it and sounding like a lao3wai4. Also, it seems to fit in nicely with zhe4, because zhe4 and ne4 rhyme.

In fact, I'm so sure that people say ne4 in Taiwan because I've heard my father in law say ne4ge as a hesitation particle about a million times.. he has a bad ne4ge stutter and I'm sure he's not saying na4.

That said, his Mandarin isn't the best..

There was also the time when there was a xiao2jei3 in a shop saying "ne4li, ne4li" about a million times to a customer who wanted to know where to put back the shoes, and then she said, as a better description of exactly where with "lao3wai4 de ho4mian4". :lol: She was a bit embarrased when I spoke back.

As I said though.. I'm sure you can get away with both.

PS: Hofman, that clears up a lot.. thanks.

[realmayo]

I read something about Vietnamese the other day which made me think of this thread: vaguely, that in the northern dialect of Vietnamese there are a few differences between the spoken language and the written "standard", and in the southern dialect there are some different differences between the spoken and the written. And there is at least one school which teaches foreigners to speak Vietnamese according to a way which is completely in accordance with the script, thereby creating a technically "correct" (ie in-accordance-with-the-way-the-language-is-written) spoken language which no one in the country actually speaks.

It made me think about er-hua: where in China does the amount of er-hua in putonghua accord with the amount of er-hua the people in that area speak with? I haven't travelled much in China. But I know that Beijingers will use much more /er/ than putonghua, and, say, south of the Yangtse people will use much less, or none. I've never heard anyone use any /er/ in Hubei except in the classroom, and to my ears it sounds stupid spoken by a southerner, because it's clearly artificial. But where in China is it naturally spoken at the same level as putonghua?

[renzhe]

But this is exactly the issue -- putonghua is not "naturally" spoken anywhere, it's an artificial standard. It is only spoken really correctly by people who pass the 普通话水平测试 with flying colours, which the majority of Chinese probably wouldn't.

The fact is, though, that erhua and qingsheng seem to tolerate much more leeway than other parts of the standard, such as the pronunciation of initials and grammar.