Amdir_Flassion Posted July 7, 2004 at 01:41 PM Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 at 01:41 PM I know there are several standards, but I'm trying to figure out which Cantonese pronunciation system system is the best for learning. Which one do u reckon? My preference is for something non-roman like Zhuyin Fuhao, because they retain a Chineseness about them. I have seen a Zhuyin version for Cantonese in an old Chinese dictionary before, but it is not commonly used. However, using romanisation system in schools (in China) will let students learn European-based languages quicker, as they will have learnt the basic roman letter background. Btw, how do students in HK learn the pronunciation of characters in Cantonese? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith Posted July 12, 2004 at 02:17 AM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 02:17 AM Not sure about the others but according to personal experience, I used the romanisation system. It wasn't easy but I got there in the end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibo77 Posted July 12, 2004 at 03:47 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 03:47 PM Well, Cantonese, if it wasn't for Hong Kong and Macau, isn't suppose to have a romanisation system nor a standard Cantonese since it isn't even suppose to be taught. Around the 1930's 白话运动Baihua Yundong -Movement towards a Vernacular Standard" made the aim to "eradicate" all "dialects" within 100 years (by 2030) and only Guan(Mandarin) was supposed to be used then(this is only for Chinese, excluding other ethnicities living in China). The extended Zhuyin Fuhao for dialects places little pigtails/flourish at the end of a stroke. The (ㄅ,ㄉ,ㄎ) p, t, k endings are smaller versions of ㄅb, ㄉd, ㄎk. (why not use smaller versions of ㄆp, ㄊt, ㄎk?) It is still very Guan (Mandarin)-based. The native speakers of Yue (Cantonese) should invent a system themselves such as Hong Kong's Jyutping. In the mainland, Beijing devised a Yue (Cantonese) version of the Hanyu Pinyin called Honyeu Penkyamp. As for me, I think the best way is using the International Phonetic Alphabet. -Shibo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ala Posted July 12, 2004 at 05:27 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 05:27 PM The Yale system isn't too bad. The tones are nicely incorporated (they avoided the numbers. Numbers and letters do not blend well together). Zhuyin Fuhao was designed specifically for Standard Mandarin (not even many Mandarin dialects); modifications for other dialects were made as an afterthought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Lee Posted July 12, 2004 at 06:37 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 06:37 PM Why do native speaking kids need certain kind of pronunciation system to study the language that they have spoken all along? I always scratch my head why fellow posters think there is such dire need. I do know that the Education Department in HK is now adding Cantonese syllabus for South Asian kids in school which definitely includes certain kinds of pronunciation system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted July 12, 2004 at 07:05 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 07:05 PM Well, Cantonese, if it wasn't for Hong Kong and Macau, isn't suppose to have a romanisation system nor a standard Cantonese since it isn't even suppose to be taught. says who? how do students in HK learn the pronunciation of characters in Cantonese? in GZ, we never learned any cantonese pronunciation, but we just happened to know the corresponding Cantonese readings of the characters, maybe from parents or other daily contacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Lee Posted July 12, 2004 at 07:11 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 07:11 PM Shibo77: What is wrong with students in HK learning Cantonese at school? The Baihua Yundong in '30s was adopted by KM T, then is China ruled by KMT now? Although Cantonese is a dialect, it is a language spoken by 70 million people (which exceeds the popularity of many major national languages). Moreover, Cantonese is more popular worldwide than Mandarin. Since it is quite useful, why don't you start to learn it too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ala Posted July 12, 2004 at 07:31 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 07:31 PM Why do native speaking kids need certain kind of pronunciation system to study the language that they have spoken all along? In GZ, we never learned any cantonese pronunciation, but we just happened to know the corresponding Cantonese readings of the characters, maybe from parents or other daily contacts. Cantonese pronunciation of characters follow a pretty regular pattern with Mandarin, don't they? 文 and 白? But for less regular dialects like Minnan and Wu (some characters in Wu have 4 or 5 readings, while some with only one), I think a pronunciation system would be very helpful. Pronunciation systems also help non-native speakers. Besides learning, these systems are helpful for inputting characters into the computer (unless you opt for something like Cangjie). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted July 12, 2004 at 07:50 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 07:50 PM yes a pronunciation system is helpful, but I don't think any is being taught at cantonese schools, so there is no standard... maybe the governments of guangdong, hk, and macau can develop a standard, but then only couple towns/cities speak that kind of cantonese in guangdong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yau Posted July 12, 2004 at 08:53 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 08:53 PM A highly accurate pinyin system for cantonese is developed and adjusted by a few scholars. My friend came to Hong Kong from Hokkien at her eleven. Her father, a teacher in a mainland china, forced her to learn this uncommon system, and now she pronunces Cantonese perfectly. Check here: http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/syllables.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ala Posted July 12, 2004 at 09:44 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 at 09:44 PM Cantonese has a lot of rhymes! Are all still preserved by the speaking population in Guangzhou and HK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claw Posted July 13, 2004 at 03:21 AM Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 at 03:21 AM I have a bunch of Cantonese books and each of them seem to have a different romanization system, so I've gotten used to reading all of them. However, I personally like the Yale system because the sound transcription is the closest to the English pronounciations out of all the different systems that I've seen (i.e. the j is pronounced like the English j rather than a y). Also, as ala said, it incorporates the tone marks into words extremely well... I find it very intuitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claw Posted July 13, 2004 at 03:56 AM Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 at 03:56 AM To address your question about how pronounciation is taught in HK... My dad told me that when he was young, schools used 《三字經》 to teach proper pronounciation (I'm not sure if they still use it now though). Apparently up until recent history, it was used for centuries to teach proper pronounciation of characters (in addition to Confucianism and a bit of history), not just for Cantonese but for all other dialects as well. The rhymes are still the best preserved in Cantonese though. This site has parts of it with accompanying audio pronouncing each of the words in Cantonese (click on the links on the right starting with 三字經之一). This site has the translation of the entire thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Lee Posted July 13, 2004 at 07:07 PM Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 at 07:07 PM As far as I know, only my mom studied 三字經 in 卜卜齋 in Guangzhou in 1920s. When I attended primary school in HK in 1950s, nobody had heard of 三字經. Maybe your dad attended school in HK in pre-WWII period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yau Posted July 13, 2004 at 09:13 PM Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 at 09:13 PM Cantonese has a lot of rhymes! Are all still preserved by the speaking population in Guangzhou and HK? Not really sure about that, but it seems no any problem for native speaker to distinguish all 9 tones ( if Ru sounds count). In fact, an inaccruate tone would probably drive petty big communication distortion in cantonese than mandarin, and making a guess is highly difficult for me. There's just no good incentive to reduce the tones of this language. As far as I know, only my mom studied 三字經 in 卜卜齋 in Guangzhou in 1920s. When I attended primary school in HK in 1950s, nobody had heard of 三字經. Maybe your dad attended school in HK in pre-WWII period. I attended primary school in early 80s but I did have an experience of reciting and learning the "Three-Character-Classic". (i can still remember most of them today) In early 90s, there's another communist version published and ...it's seriously funny. (毛澤東, 鬧革命, 鄧小平, 撥亂流.....) Thousand Character Ancient Classic (千字古文) was also learnt when i was a form 1 student. The teacher took it as a practice for the art of calligraphy. (天地玄黃 宇宙洪荒 日月盈昃 辰宿列張......) However, in my school , another long ancient article was taught and we had to take an examination on it, recite intensively. It's called 太上道祖頌. (唯我道祖, 博大莫名, 象啟元始, 氣函太清, 周室守藏, 咸谷傳經.....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Lee Posted July 13, 2004 at 09:30 PM Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 at 09:30 PM Yau: Just curious. Were you attending a Taoist school in HK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claw Posted July 13, 2004 at 09:44 PM Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 at 09:44 PM I should have mentioned that my father went to school in Guangzhou in the 1950s. I think he also learned 《千字古文》 as well. You can see the text for that at this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pazu Posted July 16, 2004 at 03:01 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 at 03:01 PM But what contributes to the specific Southeast Asian accent of Cantonese? Influenced by the local language? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted July 16, 2004 at 04:15 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 at 04:15 PM But what contributes to the specific Southeast Asian accent of Cantonese? Influenced by the local language? Southeast Asian accent?? you mean the tones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted July 16, 2004 at 04:22 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 at 04:22 PM how does a Cantonese pronunciation system differentiate 对, 帝 and 带? or 陈, 春 and 残? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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