wrbt Posted July 11, 2009 at 10:18 PM Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 at 10:18 PM anyway, test how much you know about this:ni3 ba3 je2ge3 xue2gao1 jin1 dou1 wo2 de3 kun2zi liao3, hai2ji3 shang1 dou1 you2 hen2 a3, xian1 ba2 shue2gao1 fang4 lu1 xue2gui4 ying2gu4 xia1 ba, mian3 de yong2 fa4 liao3, tong2xi2 li3 bang1 wo3 na2 ge4 ji3jing4 guo4 lai2. Ying1dou1 zeng1 de hao3 ye1, ye1 shi3 yan2 la, je4li3 lan3qi4 you1 bu4 niang2, zau3 ji1dou4 zou3 chi1 mei3guo3 la. i guess it's the so-called typical hong kong accent. If putonghua like her is 100% comprehensive to everyone, you should be able to take this too. Zozzen - 1. Your premise is based on a straw man: I've not claimed her Mandarin is 100% comprehensible to everyone. I merely said I understood most of what she said despite being just a student of Mandarin Chinese learning in the USA so she can communicate just fine. 2. I don't agree that your attempt to simulate an accent using pinyin with tone numbers in any way proves or disproves the (granted moved goalposts) position you've stated. I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here... if I could comprehend the majority of what a person speaking with this accent said in a video, what can you possibly be hoping to prove with the zozzen-pinyin-pretend-accent-string technique? Do you think that's a better judge of listening comprehension than, uh, listening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted July 12, 2009 at 01:14 AM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 01:14 AM And there is no such thing as "Cantonese style Mandarin."Of course there is. Just like there is "German style English" or "French style English" or "Italian style English". Listening to a native of those countries speaking English, it's usually very easy to distinguish which country they are from as their native language introduces slight (and sometimes significant) differences in the target language they are speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:25 AM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:25 AM Then I would call it an accent. I think of a style (式) as something native to a group, accepted by the group as something of their own, for example Cantonese style cuisine. I have a hard time interpreting the way in which some members of a group screw up something foreign as a style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zozzen Posted July 12, 2009 at 09:21 AM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 09:21 AM Zozzen -1. Your premise is based on a straw man: I've not claimed her Mandarin is 100% comprehensible to everyone. I merely said I understood most of what she said despite being just a student of Mandarin Chinese learning in the USA so she can I just wanna show you the problems that putonghua like her can raise. The above passages shows the most common mistakes with hong kong style putonghua. Wrong tones, cantonized pronunciations and confusing use of x, s, z, j , ch, c. you said you had the chance to compare beijingese putonghua and hongkongese putonghua in real life so at least you should be able to understand more in the passage than people without similar backgrounds. Give a try and see how much you can understand this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zozzen Posted July 12, 2009 at 09:56 AM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 09:56 AM I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here... so do i . It's getting strange to me that you put your wild imagnation, based on your very limited experience with Cantonized putonghua, about the situtation facing putonghua like her and try to convince someone that she can "communicate well" in China. It's misleading. Let me guess, you've never lived in China for more than a year? And you never live with putonghua like this and see how it works in China? I feel lost at your points. Sometimes you said you have the chance of comparing standard putonghua and cantonese putonghua, but in some other time when you want to show "Cantonized putonghua" like her can be well understood, you insist that you only have the chance to listen to standard putonghua from your textbook and your ears aren't trained to be 'more tolerate'. Btw, can you understand the pinyin i show you above? Nothing could be more ivory-tower if you couldn't get it after your many effort to assert putonghua like this can communicate well in china. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeyah Posted July 12, 2009 at 10:57 AM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 10:57 AM I like the way Cantonese speakers speak Mandarin, with their soft accent, it sounds much better than how speakers of some other dialects do it (eg. Shandong, Mandarin there sounds like they are quarreling all the time ). And, no, I don't have a problem understanding Miss HK. Her Mandarin actually sounds quite cute to my Canto-freak ears. I have a hard time interpreting the way in which some members of a group screw up something foreign as a style. To think that Chinglish is translated as 中式英语. Must be because they do it with style... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaocai Posted July 12, 2009 at 02:18 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 02:18 PM with their soft accent You must be kidding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeyah Posted July 12, 2009 at 02:33 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 02:33 PM No, not at all. To my ears typical 北方话 sounds a bit, how shall I put it... 'harsh'? Well, westerners do have a problem articulating Mandarin sounds, don't they? I think there was also a thread on this. Anyway, compared to 北方话, Cantonese and Mandarin spoken by the Cantonese, sound very, very 'mild' to me. So, I've no problem with the way she talks. But perhaps it's just me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaocai Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:02 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:02 PM I see. But even I have been watching Cantonese drama since when I was in primary school, it has never been a "soft" dialect to me. Still, it doesn't mean that I don't like the sound of Cantonese. I just feel that a language does not to be "soft" to be likable ,and vice versa, does not to be "hard" to sound harsh to my ear. Talking about her accent, I have no problem with it as well. And as long as it is understandable, personally I will not say that her Mandarin is rubbish. BTW, I think most Westerners also have problem articulating Cantonese sounds as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrbt Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:03 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:03 PM I just wanna show you the problems that putonghua like her can raise. And the best way to do this is to misrepresent what someone else says? If you'd like to discuss opinions that's cool and all but when you're being intellectually dishonest it gets us nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrbt Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:14 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:14 PM It's getting strange to me that you put your wild imagnation, based on your very limited experience with Cantonized putonghua, about the situtation facing putonghua like her and try to convince someone that she can "communicate well" in China. It's misleading. Let me guess, you've never lived in China for more than a year? And you never live with putonghua like this and see how it works in China? I could understand most of what she said with limited experience in China or non-standard Mandarin, so yeah I think it's safe to say she can communicate well enough. Answer me this: do you think you could drop this woman off in Beijing and she could handle day-to-day communication tasks like catching a taxi to where she wants, renting an apartment, buying groceries, discussing lovely white dresses, etc. with the locals? Do you claim that everyone would just stare at her in bewilderment unable to comprehend what she's saying, despite some guy self-studying in USA being able to? I feel lost at your points. Sometimes you said you have the chance of comparing standard putonghua and cantonese putonghua, but in some other time when you want to show "Cantonized putonghua" like her can be well understood, you insist that you only have the chance to listen to standard putonghua from your textbook and your ears aren't trained to be 'more tolerate'. Yes, I can tell you're lost. I'll try again: 1. Study materials (which is at least 95% of the Chinese I've heard) are standard Mandarin, hence ears not tolerant. 2. I have encountered people from HK (usually waiters in Chinese restaurants) that speak Mandarin with a strong accent. These two conditions are not mutually exclusive. Btw, can you understand the pinyin i show you above? Nothing could be more ivory-tower if you couldn't get it after your many effort to assert putonghua like this can communicate well in china. I'm not bothering with your silly string of purposely error-filled pinyin as I believe it's a completely asinine way to attempt to assess listening comprehension, especially given that there are far better ways (like a video of someone speaking) available right from the onset of this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeyah Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:24 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:24 PM Unnecessarily finding fault with someone is also called hairsplitting, I think... a language does not to be "soft" to be likable ,and vice versa, does not to be "hard" to sound harsh to my ear. I never used the word 'harsh' to say I liked it less & if you read between the lines you'll see I actually said: I like both, very, very much．It's just that Cantonese is my daydream precisely because it's too hard to learn... makes me so sad. Anyway, language is a communication tool, nothing more, so, as long as she's understood by the majority of listeners, it's unfair to call her Mandarin "rubbish". Or anyone else's less standard pronunciation at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrbt Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:28 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 03:28 PM zozzen, Since you're attempting to discredit my opinion that she can communicate by attacking my experience of how long I've lived in China or claiming I have a wild imagination, I offer you: HashiriKata - If I happen to stop this speaker in the middle of Hongkong to ask the way, I'd probably think her Mandarin is very good. wushijiao - Yes, she has a thick Cantonese accent, but, can any native speaker not understand her? I find that you can basically understand her. skylee - It's ok. Standard. Oh but I am just a native speaker, no expert. Music&MeForever - I agree completely with HashiriKata. Her Mandarin is fine. She's got a bit of an accent but I can perfectly well understand what she's saying. Lu - I think, she speaks it alright, her pronounciation is bad but still intelligible, she won't have any trouble making herself understood in China. DrZero - She's a fluent speaker, she just has an accent. An accent isn't "bad" or "rubbish" per se. leeyah - I've no problem with the way she talks. But perhaps it's just me xiaocai - Talking about her accent, I have no problem with it as well. And as long as it is understandable, personally I will not say that her Mandarin is rubbish. calibre2001 - I understand what she's saying Should we assume none of these people have lived in China long enough for you to qualify them as "counting" in this discussion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zozzen Posted July 12, 2009 at 06:17 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 06:17 PM Come on darling, great job for data mining, but it'll be a greater job to read my pinyin text tailor made to you. It's a very typical hongkong style. If you can understand her so well, you, as poorly trained intolerant ears as you said, should also be able to understand this too. Why not make a try? What makes you so dedicated to spend time on data mining but hesitate to show us how comprehensive Hong Kong putonghua is. And you also confuse "survival" and "proficiency". Calling a taxi , buying a dress doesn't mean you can speak the language and reflects no proficiency. I got my swimming goggle with 550 degree in Vietnam without knowing a single word for this. She, with her beautiful face and shining character, could survive in Ethiopia too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zozzen Posted July 12, 2009 at 06:23 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 06:23 PM (edited) wo3 hoi1 shi3 guo2 de4 bu4 chi1 duo1 je1 ge giu1 WRBT de yan2 gao3 sen3me1 a. It's not CIA secret code, it's hongkongese putonghua again. Answer: 我开始觉得不知道这个叫wrbt 的人搞甚么呀. Edited July 12, 2009 at 06:54 PM by zozzen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted July 12, 2009 at 06:45 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 06:45 PM zozzen, I don't understand your Pinyin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zozzen Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:02 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:02 PM And answer for this: ni3 ba3 je2ge3 xue2gao1 jin1 dou1 wo2 de3 kun2zi liao3, 你 把 這 個 雪 榚 沾 到 我 的 裙 子 了 (common mistakes in hong kong putonghua: 裙唸成kun、沾讀成 jin , 這唸成je, dou/ dao 不分) hai2ji3 shang1 dou1 you2 a3, 鞋 子 上 都 有 呀. (mistakes: 鞋唸成 hai . 子唸成 ji, zi, 或 zhi ) xian1 ba2 shue2gao1 fang4 lu1 xue2gui4 ying2gu4 xia1 ba, 先 把 雪 榚 放 入 雪 櫃 凝固 下 吧, ( 凝常唸成 ying) mian3 de yong2 fa4 liao3, 免 得 融 化了 (r sounds like y, h sounds like f ) tong2xi2 li3 bang1 wo3 na2 ge4 ji3jing4 guo4 lai2. 同 時 你 幫 我 拿 個 紙 巾 過 來. (常把 餐巾紙唸成紙巾, 還要唸錯音; shi 音跟xi 音互混) Ying1dou1 zeng1 de hao3 ye1, 印度 真 的 好熱. (印度唸成陰道..... ) ye1 shi3 yan2 la, 熱 死 人 啦, ( r 變成 y) je4li3 lan3qi4 you1 bu4 niang2, zau3 ji1dou4 zou3 chi1 mei3guo3 la. 這 裡 冷 氣 又 不涼, 早知道 就去 美國啦. When i lived in a classroom environment to learn putonghua, i was too-naive-sometimes-too-simple to think that these mistakes were okay. I could get my massage service in Shenzhen, buy a filled duck in Beijing and order my milk tea in inner mongolia. Many years later, i found that these guys were good at listening to me, not because my putonghua was good (It's damned good now, i swear ), but they lived in a tourist area with so many cantonese tourists. In reality, even a mistake on pronouncing zhi/zi (子) can lead me to an endless loop of "What? " "What did you say? ". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrbt Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:10 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:10 PM Come on darling, great job for data mining, but it'll be a greater job to read my pinyin text tailor made to you. Negative. It's completely foolish to rely on purposely garbled pinyin over an actual video of someone speaking to determine listening comprehension, and frankly I'm astounded that anyone claiming any level of expertise enough to speak on the subject would believe so. Why not make a try? What makes you so dedicated to spend time on data mining but hesitate to show us how comprehensive Hong Kong putonghua is. The time spent "data mining" refutes your taking the direction of my having not lived in China or having wild imagination being a factor... apparently many people in this forum who have lived in China think she can communicate too. That's inconvenient for your obviously poorly formed argument so you're attempting to lean on this silly pinyin thing. Answer me this: what is a better judge of listening comprehension, actual listening or purposely error-laden pinyin? Obviously you choose the latter so that speaks enough to me about how much credence to place in your opinion or wisdom on the subject. And you also confuse "survival" and "proficiency". Calling a taxi , buying a dress doesn't mean you can speak the language and reflects no proficiency. I got my swimming goggle with 550 degree in Vietnam without knowing a single word for this. She, with her beautiful face and shining character, could survive in Ethiopia too. I never brought up survival or proficiency, you are because you don't want to admit that the woman in the video can communicate just fine with her Mandarin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrbt Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:14 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:14 PM zozzen, I don't understand your Pinyin. Shhh... you'll upset his strange view of linguistics where listening comprehension is best gauged by text as opposed to that whole listening thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrbt Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:19 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at 07:19 PM I got my swimming goggle with 550 degree in Vietnam Check your plurals. With errors like that, are you sure you can communicate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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