How is his Chinese?

[Lu]

On another forum there's someone who claims they taught themselves Chinese, and better than anyone can ever learn a language in school, and faster too. Upon request this poster posted some Chinese they had written after 1,5 years of self-study (and the English translation). I can tell the English is really bad, but well, they know that too. The Chinese looks to me quite good for a foreigner, if a bit unnatural, with some mistakes, but I'm well aware that, being a foreigner myself, I'm not the person to judge another foreigner's Chinese.

So, how good is this Chinese?

在我详细描述了我如何着手学习中文的计划之后，我开始付诸于行动。我购买了汉语课文书阅读，这是一本由牛津出版的相对简易的课文书。渐渐地，我开始积累词汇。不久之后.我用这本书的学习一些核心基础课程，诸如发音，但是所提供的词汇量和课题太少，对于一个想精通这门语言的人来说，肯定是不够的。我转而在网上搜寻有中文以及中国文化课程的网站，正凑巧，我发觉了一个特别的网站，zhongwen.com，这个网站除了有为想学习中文和中国文化准备的丰富资料外，也为那些有意练习中文的人提供了一个非常有益的聊天室，并且，还为这个聊天室提供了一本很棒的字典。就有效性来说，这个非凡的网站，据我所知，比任何其它语言学习网站都要好，并且，这个网站，就学习中文全方面内容赢得了最高分。当然，这个网站也有它的缺点，特别是它的聊天，因为有人克隆（复制）别人在聊天室里的名字来妨碍别人。长话短说，不管怎样，我遇见并交了一些很好的朋友，最后，我把他们加到了我的MSN信使上，MSN是一种在线即时通讯服务。从此，我确定寻找在线的中国朋友并与他们相互交流就是学习这门语言最有效的的方法，当他们发现我，一个老外，着迷于学习他们的语言的时候，我感到他们非常友善，并且永远那么乐于助人。

(I'm not linking to the other website, I feel it's not fair to the person posting.)

[renzhe]

Did he pour that out of his fingers, or did he take a bit of time and use a dictionary?

Because it seems to me that his vocabulary is far better than his grammar. Like you said, the grammar and sentence construction often looks unusual, but maybe it's just me.

[skylee]

It's ok. It delivers what the writer wants it to deliver. But it is not very well-written, probably has to do with both the writer's knowledge of the language and writing skill. Somehow I find the sentences clumsy and dull. But then it is not worse than a very very average local student in HK.

But it is very dull. Perhaps it has to do with the subject.

If the writer could write it after 1.5 years' study, then I think the method is effective. But good Chinese is more than just grammar and vocab. Just compare it with like what muyongshi wrote in the jokes thread, or imron's writing on this thread (but then they are shorter, I know).

[Brianlee0311]

His Chinese is really good, special just learn 1.5 years. I think why he can make good writing is meeting a lot of people online and chatting. That is the effective way. Otherwise, juts learning by himself is not fun at all.

[gato]

He uses too many conjunctions, such "并且“, ”转而“, "从此", I think. Chinese generally use fewer conjunctions than European languages, but even in European languages, I believe it is often advised in writing books to minimize the use of conjunctions, as conjunctions tend to disrupt the rhythm of sentences.

I've highlighted some of word usages that I found problematic below. Some of the other issues are wrong word usage (发觉), odd mix of formal (诸如) and informal, verboseness ("长话短说，不管怎样", "遇见并交了"). Some of the problems are just generic writing problems, and not problems specific to foreign learners.

You said this person's English is bad. What is his/her native language? Some of the sentences read like direct translations from English that doesn't quite work in Chinese.

在我详细描述了我如何着手学习中文的计划之后，我开始付诸于行动。我购买了汉语课文书阅读，这是一本由牛津出版的相对简易的课文书。渐渐地，我开始积累词汇。不久之后.我用这本书的学习一些核心基础课程，诸如发音，但是所提供的词汇量和课题太少，对于一个想精通这门语言的人来说，肯定是不够的。我转而在网上搜寻有中文以及中国文化课程的网站，正凑巧，我发觉了一个特别的网站，zhongwen.com，这个网站除了有为想学习中文和中国文化准备的丰富资料外，也为那些有意练习中文的人提供了一个非常有益的聊天室，并且，还为这个聊天室提供了一本很棒的字典。就有效性来说，这个非凡的网站，据我所知，比任何其它语言学习网站都要好，并且，这个网站，就学习中文全方面内容赢得了最高分。当然，这个网站也有它的缺点，特别是它的聊天，因为有人克隆（复制）别人在聊天室里的名字来妨碍别人。长话短说，不管怎样，我遇见并交了一些很好的朋友，最后，我把他们加到了我的MSN信使上，MSN是一种在线即时通讯服务。从此，我确定寻找在线的中国朋友并与他们相互交流就是学习这门语言最有效的的方法，当他们发现我，一个老外，着迷于学习他们的语言的时候，我感到他们非常友善，并且永远那么乐于助人。

Edited June 5, 2009 at 06:26 AM by gato

[chrix]

Chinese generally use fewer conjunctions than European languages, but in European, I believe it is usually to minimize the use of conjunctions, as conjunctions tend to disrupt the rhythm of sentences

gato, I don't understand this. Europeans use them more, but they still minimise them?

Especially coordinating conjunctions are quite a must in European languages and I'm not sure if they necessarily would disrupt the rhythm of sentences. (On second thought it might be that many subordinate clauses tend to introduce background information which will disrupt topic-continuity, so I don't necessarily agree with the statement that conjunctions per se disrupt the rhythm). Be that as it may, I've noticed that Chinese does seem to use fewer conjunctions. Not just for coordinating conjunctions, but also for conditionals and so on (which in English works only in reversed word order and has a quite formal flavour).

Also even if the person who wrote this is not a native speaker, typologically speaking the major European languages are quite similar, which also holds to a certain extent for phrases and so on, so it wouldn't necessarily have to come from English....

[gato]

Sorry, I didn't proof what I wrote and didn't realize that it made no sense. I've revised it. I meant that "Chinese generally use fewer conjunctions than European languages, but even in European languages, I believe it is often advised in writing books to minimize the use of conjunctions, as conjunctions tend to disrupt the rhythm of sentences."

[chrix]

ok, thanks. I'll let the rest stand as I still believe it to be valid but as such it is tangential to the issue at hand...

[Lu]

You said this person's English is bad. What is his/her native language?

Dutch. And I also felt the sentence structure is too European-translated-to-Chinese, and that some words are not quite right. Funny though that so far the native speakers rate him better than the language learners.

[renzhe]

That is quite interesting.

Maybe we're being too snobby? it's certainly not bad at all for 1.5 years of self-study. But I still think that it makes a difference whether he just typed down his thoughts, or if he sat down for an hour with a dictionary.

[xiaocai]

I think most of the native speakers were just amazed by the amount of "big words" he used and ignored the inappropriateness, let alone the grammatical mistakes.

I have to say his Chinese is very good after only 1.5 year of self-study. But I just feel that it could have been better if he had a good teacher and also a better Chinese-speaking environment to build up a more solid basis of grammar as well as to learn to use simpler but more lively words and phrases.

[calibre2001]

Good point. But do you guys it has something to do with the mindset of most native speakers that using more big words is a good thing?? Whenever I listen to mainland chinese participants of an english debate I am often baffled by the extensive use of fairly big words in their speech.

[HashiriKata]

I am often baffled by the extensive use of fairly big words in their speech.

The use of big words by learners is often not a conscious choice. When they rely mainly on books and dictionaries for their vocabulary, it's not always easy for them to tell which are big words and which ordinary people would use. More experienced learners tend to be able to avoid using big words.

[chrix]

yeah when you get to the point of reading novels, you are hit with all those seemingly easy words you have been ignoring so far because you dont come across those in the classroom setting or when reading newspapers... all these words for everyday objects and body movements etc.

[yersi]

To me it looks like he has gained fluent command of dictionarese, which is not that hard if you apply yourself over a year or so. I can write (and have written) decent essays in Portuguese, a language which I have studied on my own for less than six months and barely speak at all, just by spending a lot of time googling and looking up words. I've posted some of these on lang-8 and the natives go "nossa!! o seu português é maravílhoso!".

[HashiriKata]

To me it looks like he has gained fluent command of dictionarese, which is not that hard if you apply yourself over a year or so.

In ideal circumstances, I don't have any doubt that some people can even become fully functional in the language after one and a half years of studying. For this reason, evaluation of someone's competence based on one or two things we happen to know about the person is always...dodgy!

[yersi]

No shit?! I wasn't passing off my evaluation as objective fact, if that was what you were implying. My sense of his essay is that it was written with copious use of a dictionary and gives little indication of his "real" language ability beyond that he understands some basic syntax and grammar rules. I have done this myself many times in many different languages and I know this kind of writing when I see it.

[renzhe]

My sense of his essay is that it was written with copious use of a dictionary and gives little indication of his "real" language ability beyond that he understands some basic syntax and grammar rules.

So I'm not the only one who felt like this.

For example, 非凡 threw me off. It's not in the HSK vocabulary, and I don't know any textbooks that teach it. Its meaning is obvious, but it's not something you'd use in writing, unless you had a good command of more than 10,000 words.

[skylee]

For example, 非凡 threw me off. It's not in the HSK vocabulary, and I don't know any textbooks that teach it. Its meaning is obvious, but it's not something you'd use in writing, unless you had a good command of more than 10,000 words.

well, 非凡 is not really that 非凡. it is frequently used in advertisements.

PS - I agree with xiaocai that the writer needs to learn to use simpler but more lively words and phrases, which is perhaps why I find the writing very clumsy and dull.

[HashiriKata]

No shit?! I wasn't passing off my evaluation as objective fact, if that was what you were implying.

Cool down! I didn't imply anything but basiscally agree with what I quoted in my post (of what you said), and added that some people in the right circumstances can even do better than that.