How Much Did Your Chinese Partner Improve Your Chinese?

[lplplp]

Hello,

I've been learning Chinese for 2.7 years now. I have often debated with myself over the usefulness of having a Chinese girlfriend. So I ask all you advanced learners: how much did having a Chinese girlfriend (or boyfriend) improve your Chinese?

[Prodigal Son]

it'll depend on how much interaction you have with chinese people in your everyday life. if you're speaking chinese all day it might not make a big difference but if you teach english and hang out with foreigners it will force you to dramatically improve (assuming that your partner doesn't speak english). for me personally I developed a ton during a year with a girl who didn't speak any english at all.

[imron]

I reached an advanced level of Chinese without a Chinese girlfriend. What is important is regular interaction with Chinese people (who aren't interested/able to speak English) - which is something I did a lot of.

If your sole reason for getting a Chinese girlfriend is just to increase your exposure to the language, then you might want to consider other ways to gain this exposure. How would you feel if you found out your girlfriend was mostly just interested in using you to improve her English?

[Meng Lelan]

I reached an advanced level of Chinese without a Chinese girlfriend. What is important is regular interaction with Chinese people (who aren't interested/able to speak English) - which is something I did a lot of.

imron is right on the point with that remark. You have to surround yourself with Chinese people who don't care a fig about the English language.

I can tell you that I have or have had a number of non-Chinese students in my adult level Chinese classes who were enrolled in the class by their Chinese wives. The reason being that the Chinese wives go to work, take care of the household, child care issues, etc they are very busy and don't have time to teach Chinese, something that I can understand being a working woman myself 24/7.

[wannabeafreak]

I have a Chinese wife.

It only improves your Chinese to a certain point and then doesn't help much.

From experience, you'll see an increase in fluency and vocabulary. Though the problem is that when your partner is used to your Chinese regardless if tones, grammar, or word usage is wrong; they will not correct your Chinese. This means that when you talk to anyone other than your partner, they'll not understand what you are talking about and you'll look like an idiot.

In addition, your partner will eventually talk the same topics all the time, use the same vocabulary all the time and then you'll end up in a dead end.

I recall I was upset because I could comfortably talk to my wife in many topics, but when I tried talking to her friend, the friend kept asking my wife "what did he say?" Only my wife could understand my Chinese as she adapted to all my mistakes. Even to the point where she can predict what I'm going to say next even without saying it.

[yersi]

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[leeyah]

...have never thought of a relationship like a service or a machine hence I struggle to imagine how to do the cost benefit analysis... "the usefulness of a Chinese gf, that Iplplp uses to assess things

Excellent choice of words.

I must say I felt a bit uncomfortable with the word usefulness in the title of this thread so I ignored it, but my experience is basically very close to imron's:

I reached an advanced level of Chinese without a Chinese girlfriend. What is important is regular interaction with Chinese people (who aren't interested/able to speak English) - which is something I did a lot of.

Yes, definitely possible! Speaking to any Chinese you happen to meet, regardless of their education level (or even their native dialect - that's actually the most interesting part!), any time, any place will certainly make you feel good about your Chinese and make all your boring classroom & self study worthwhile, but don't forget to keep up the hard work, too. As for Chinese partners it's not as simple as it seems, it may have its advantages but I don't think you can't expect that amount of patience from anyone really.

Unless you are lucky to actually date a Chinese living abroad who's motivated enough to help you with your studies, as an alternative for practicing Chinese outside of China I'd recommend (definitely only well-educated）Chinese pen pals, those who don't mind writing to you in Chinese & not those who want to "show off" their English, even though the inventiveness of the latter may also brighten up your rainy days sometimes. Writing communication is an invaluable study tool, especially for advanced learners. There are so many new things you can learn this way, from the way people think to on-the-go acquisition of some rarely used or typical expressions which can't be found in any dictionary. Of course, friends you've met while in China are the best pen pals you can get. Ex-girlfriends/boyfriends excluded, of course.

And since OP also touched upon topics other than language, I just can't resist the temptation to comment on some of the previous posts, so:

the old "you should get a girlfriend from X in order to improve your language skills" meme. I've heard this mostly in Asia, in many different countries, but not so much in Europe. I don't know if this speaks to my experiences being less representative or maybe to the more prevalent machismo in Asia

Or has anyone hear ever heard locals tell you to get a German, French, Swedish, Dutch girlfriend to improve their respective language skills...

No, I don't think you'll hear this in Europe (in renzhe's "case" I think it's a typically German thing, you know: you should date a German girl in Germany)

But anyway, in Asian countries there is this tradition of 男人为主 (ok, let's translate it as machismo) & yes, it's still enormously prevalent, which can be quite annoying sometimes if you are a Western girl alone in China. Call it culture shock if you like, but yes, in the West we are brought up in the tradition ladies first, so most western girls expect to be wined & dined, worshiped & respected like queens. In Asia it's still the guys who enjoy the status of gods. This doesn't mean they are not gentlemen in their own way, either. Actually I've had nothing but very pleasant encounters with Chinese males. But maybe it's just me.

Still the phenomenon of Asian machismo mentioned by chrix may be one of the reasons there still aren't many Western girls dating/marrying Asian/Chinese men, and I don't think it's racism, no, rather the upbringing. Whatever, Chinese girls don't have much choice, and yes they'll marry the first guy who wants them (I just happen to know a couple of desperate girls in this situation), but yes they have their filters too, and actually it's the "filtering" that make things harder for them. And even though the younger generation are getting more liberal nowadays in China (so dear Western girls there's still hope!) most Chinese girls are still under enormous pressure to get married as early as possible, the limit is mostly set to 25 the latest and the traditional 谈恋爱要趁早,不然好男人都会被抢掉 is typically used as an argument. True there are calculations in every 男女 relationship, but their wish to marry up doesn't necessarily have to imply profit in the material sense either. Asian women are also capable of recognizing a gentleman even if most of them never had the chance to meet one. Anyway, the rise in Asian female/Western male marriages doesn't look bad at all, on the contrary, from what I've seen, most Asian women seem a lot happier with Western husbands. (I don't know if huaqiao guys fit into Western upbringing category, I suppose they do? ) Anyway, there are far too many sad stories of Chinese husbands being too selfish to the point of abandoning their sick wives (and children!) not to mention the 21st century-concubine-syndrome, etc etc. But that's another story.

[heifeng]

I don't think a Chinese partner will increase anyone's language skills by leaps and bounds. If anything they'll just make it worse because:

1) You may actually be less social and be exposed to LESS Chinese (the language....AND the people:mrgreen:)

2) Now you have one more distraction from actually picking up a book and studying.

3) He/She sure as heck isn't gonna do the studying for you AND probably is NOT a trained CSL instructor, so his/her general ability to correct your problems and explain why it is wrong is limited.

4) You may end up talking really girly or like a dude and not even realize it.

5) too much exposure to just one accent (see point number 1).

6) The viscious cycle of talking about the same things...or just avoiding eachother and not talking. But then again this would be good for points 1 and 2.

So if you are gonna just find a partner to improve your Chinese, then I suggest switching them up frequently OR keeping a few on the DL.

OR if you actually have a Chinese partner because it's actually serious or what not, don't expect miracles to happen. You still need to pull your own weight and learn the language.

Is this on topic enough?

Edited June 19, 2009 at 01:27 AM by heifeng
engineers can't spell

[isela]

Haifeng's six points are perfectly summarized! And I can't help laughing thinking about pt. 4. I know of a guy from the US who hangs out with Taiwanese girls all the time to learn Chinese. It made lots of his American and Chinese friends jealous at first. But after a while, the guy just start speaking with all the dia3 (嗲) expressions like xxxx (long-dragged) 啦，xxxxx 嘛，xxxx了啦~~~, without even realizing. I believe I once joked with him saying that he's turning eunuch.

I think that if you are more of making use of your gf to study Chinese than to love her, you deep down just know it. If it bothers you, then you must have already adjusted and love her more. Good that you've done so. But if it didn't bother you, then there can be two possibilities: 1. your partner is also making use of you to get sth back, so I guess this is only fair, and 2. your poor gf is too devoting and too dumb to know it, and even if she does, she doesn't have the gut to ask for the break-up (Lu's point is certain valid). Then this is too bad...

I have a book to recommend: Amy Tan - <>. Read it to see how hard it was for two generations Chinese moms and daughters to insist on their values and incompatible believes as new immigrants in the US. This was on the NYT bestseller list for 9 months.

[muyongshi]

Heifengs point while funny is so true!

I live in Sichuan and so most of my exposure is to 川普 meaning that I naturally pick up the local way of saying things. One of my good friend is a northerner though and when I would spend lots of time with him my mandarin starting taking on a more northern feel in many ways. Watching too much TV also changes the way I talk. It's very funny to observe my own usage and the factors that play into it. What's fun is learning how to control them so I can use them in different situations.

Anyway, to keep on topic my advice is what so many others have said: surround yourself by lots of different people that only speak Chinese and don't want to speak English. After three years in China, I have a total of 2 friends that speak english [and they are near fluent] but have never pushed me to use English and now we just flow in and out of both very naturally.

[Meng Lelan]

heifeng's six points are so on target and muyongshi too. I actually printed out heifeng's six points and stuffed a copy into my wallet so anytime I feel bad about not having any significant other at all, I just take it out and read it and it really works for me, I don't feel as bad anymore.

[wushijiao]

I have a Chinese wife.It only improves your Chinese to a certain point and then doesn't help much.

From experience, you'll see an increase in fluency and vocabulary. Though the problem is that when your partner is used to your Chinese regardless if tones, grammar, or word usage is wrong; they will not correct your Chinese. This means that when you talk to anyone other than your partner, they'll not understand what you are talking about and you'll look like an idiot.

In addition, your partner will eventually talk the same topics all the time, use the same vocabulary all the time and then you'll end up in a dead end.

I recall I was upset because I could comfortably talk to my wife in many topics, but when I tried talking to her friend, the friend kept asking my wife "what did he say?" Only my wife could understand my Chinese as she adapted to all my mistakes. Even to the point where she can predict what I'm going to say next even without saying it.

I agree 100% with wannabefreak's insight there.

But, despite the limitations stated above and in heifeng’s earlier post, I still think that having a Chinese partner can be a great asset in learning the language.

But there are a lot of caveats:

-is the person willing to speak Chinese to you (as mentioned, they may want to use you to improve their English, or your Chinese may be so much lower than their English level, that it seems a bit forced and ridiculous to speak Chinese)?

-Are you able to do things and talk about things that will widen your scope of regularly used vocabulary? In my case, at one point I tried to summarize news items I had read to my wife, and she was willing to listen and support my Chinese, even though her English is way better than my Chinese. The point is, if one’s is feeling limited in vocabulary usage, I think that that can be fixed, by expending contexts and texts through which you can encounter new vocabulary through readings, travel, movies, activities…etc.

Still, I think there are huge advantages in having a partner who is willing to speak to you in your target language. Some of the obvious points being:

-As you spend a lot of time with them, your fluency increases dramatically. (Personally, I spend probably the majority of my free time with my wife. If she were a native English speaker, obviously that would mean thousands and thousands of hours that I’d be speaking English, which would be very significant opportunity cost-wise.)

-You get used to the way one person talks, and although this later is a handicap, at first it might provide the breakthrough you need to start understanding native speech.

-A native speaker, especially in China, can introduce their Chinese friends and family, thus allowing you easy access to new networks of friends (who will use Chinese with you).

I’ve been thinking a lot about the last point quite a bit lately, and it seems to me that quite a few (if not most) of the gweilo’s who have become fluent in Cantonese have had a Cantonese partner. I think in the case of Cantonese, it’s a bit different than Mandarin, since, socio-linguistically, you can essentially get by quite nicely in Hong Kong without knowing Cantonese, and breaking into Cantonese-speaking social groups is difficult, although not impossible. Of course, in other socio-linguistic contexts (where local people fully expect you to speak their language, say, in Paris) that factor may not be nearly as important.

[roddy]

Cut out a lot of off-topic posts and left them in Chat&LE.

[Meng Lelan]

Only my wife could understand my Chinese as she adapted to all my mistakes

An American guy I knew, he has a Chinese wife. Once time he wrote an email in Chinese and asked me to correct it. There were a lot of mistakes in there so I corrected them and sent it back. He was dismayed and said, "But my Chinese wife went through it first and said it all looked okay..."

So I think what was happening is she's gotten used to how he writes in Chinese and can somehow figure out his meaning and just leave it at that.

[skylee]

And not everyone is well-educated. And even if people are educated they can make mistakes. Take a look at the letter in this thread -> http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/21459-translation-of-letter-in-simplified-characters

[wushijiao]

And not everyone is well-educated. And even if people are educated they can make mistakes.

Hehe..good point. I think it's worth educating oneself (and one's partner) about the process of learning languages (by reading language theory books, or through forums like this). Any international couple has the potential to boost both persons’ language abilities, which I think should be the ultimate goal. If both people are bilingual and "bi-cultural", so to speak, it will help facilitate a much smoother relationship, and will allow you to understand your partner in his/her own terms. Plus, having the extra language skills can open up new doors in terms of educational and employment opportunities.

For example, I've spent thousands of hours explaining English terms, slang, and explaining historical and cultural things to my wife, like the hilarity of Monty Python, Adam Sandler and Will Ferrell movies, the Daily Show, South Park, Seinfeld, the Simpson's...etc, not mention helping her understand the Economist, NYT, and helping her prepare for the GMAT, which she did well on. Because of all that (and her own talent), she's been able not only to get an MBA (while becoming the Class President) and able to work for a big multinational company (making more money than me!), but also she can sit around and joke with Westerners using their sense of humor. (Please excuse my bragging!) She's been just as helpful with me.

So, I think, ideally, it's great to consciously think about these issues, and create ways for using each language without making the other person feel used, or whatever. If one person doesn’t feel competent in teaching their native language, it’s important to remember that teaching is a skill that can be taught!

[zozzen]

回覆: How Much Did Your Chinese Partner Improve Your Chinese?

Mine has helped me a lot, but then again she is absolutely merciless when it comes to correcting my mistakes - somewhat atypical for Chinese (or Taiwanese, in her case) girls. She is also very pro-active in teaching me new vocabulary, and speaks only rudimentary English.

Atypical? You must be kidding.

I've met a lot of Chinese and Chinese learners so devoted to correct others' pronunciation and laugh at it.

If they don't , they're either 'atypical' or don't speak English.

[pookie]

My experience is that's Atypical. My wife is from Taiwan and has no inclination whatsoever to teach me Chinese. I learned more from my first Chinese lesson than from 8 years of being with her. She likes speaking English, which doesn't help.

However everyone I meet says, 'Did you learn Chinese from your wife?' and are shocked when I say 'Not at all, I taught myself mostly'.

[Chester716]

just from where and who I grew up with I've had a lot more asian gf's than white gf's and developed a preference I guess. Language help is just a bonus for me and if its japanese korean thai or chinese I always TRY and learn something. normally I pick more up from movies or music tho... but I don't think you should get a gf or bf of a certain language to assist in learning.... just make them friends then...

if you do tho I agree with most of the points on here... some can be very helpful and some can't teach you a single tone or word without starting an argument with you....

the point about talking girly is good cuz I "sorta" developed that in japanese since I learned from my ex gf a lot.... but caught it...

its really helpful to increase vocab early on.... I used to write out 100 sentences in english and get her to write out how to say them in jap beside it...... then id import to my Palm flash card program and just study them on the go..... cuz trying to translate word for word can not get you the results you want... so having someone that knows generally how that would actually be said in conversation helps a lot... but yes sometimes a girl might say it differently and she might write that down for you to learn if you dont watch for it..