bronze zhadou - jiajing date

[itchy]

taking your comments into consideation i have posted

pictures of the whole items that i have in my collection from now on.

here is a bronze zhadou incised with deer amongst the three friends

(pine, prunus and bamboo)

on the base i believe is a ming jiajing date????

and inside the neck a four character mark,

any ideas on the date and hallmark??

thanks once again.

[jbradfor]

The mark on the bottom does appear to be a date:

嘉清 -- Jiaqing Emperor [later edit: this is wrong, see below....]

三十七年 -- 37th year

五月 -- fifth month (or May?)

吉日 -- lucky day????

造 -- manufactured

What I don't understand is that according to wikipedia, The reign of the Jiaqing Emperor (嘉慶帝) lasted only 24 years, so how could this be manufactured during his 37th years?

Edited July 6, 2009 at 06:09 PM by jbradfor

[itchy]

not confusion as it refers to

jiajing of the ming dynasty rather than jiaqing of the qing.

[itchy]

any ideas on the interior mark?

[jbradfor]

Opps, read the second character wrong. Then it should be

嘉靖 -- Jiajing Emperor

Since his reign was 45 years (according to Wikipedia), I guess there was enough time....

[jbradfor]

any ideas on the interior mark?

Not really. The best I can get is

齊七府製

齊 -- I'm REALLY not sure about this one, but it's a name

七府 -- 7th district

製 -- manufactured

So manufactured by Qi of the 7th district???

[HashiriKata]

So manufactured by Qi of the 7th district???

Assuming that the characters you've got are correct, then I'd say 齊七府製 means "Made by QiQiFu". But again, it's only a guess.

[studentyoung]

any ideas on the date and hallmark??

The hallmark inside and the seal on the base both can’t prove the thing was made in Ming Dynasty.

First, the biggest and clearest mistake is the thing held in the deer’s mouth. Usually, it should have been a piece of glossy ganoderma 灵芝. A deer with a piece of glossy ganoderma held in its mouth was one of auspicious patterns in those days, called as灵鹿衔芝, which implies longevity and high official position. It’s almost impossible for a craftsman in Ming Dynasty to design a deer holding a piece of flower in its mouth, which means nothing.

Second, the calligraphy of the seal on the base is also a big hole. Usually, only someone who is great at calligraphy can make seals for noble families. IMHO, the calligraphy in that seal is too bad, which seems made by someone who knows little on calligraphy. It’s a shame for a noble family to have a seal like this.

Third, when we talk about something is some dynasty, we should judge basic elements below:

1.whether the shape is fit to shapes in those days

2.whether the pattern on it is fits to the styles in those days

3.whether the process skills is fit to skills in those days

4.whether the mixture of the material is fit to the technology in those days

etc...

Marks are taken as secondary proof to help judge when something is made.

OP, if you do have a lot of money and time, how about take some time to go visit China’s museums and learn some knowledge on Chinese traditional culture at first?

Cheers!

[isela]

@studentyoung: I don't know how to talk to you... Where did you learn all this stuff? Totally amazing!

[leeyah]

:clap @studentyoung, the forums'

connoisseur of Chinese arts & history

who even gave you an excellent piece of advice :

if you do have a lot of money and time, how about take some time to go visit China’s museums and learn some knowledge on Chinese traditional culture at first?

[studentyoung]

@ Isela

Where did you learn all this stuff?

Well, it’s nothing special. If you want to learn this kind of things, you can pay attention to relative books on antiques/folk arts/ history, TV shows about Chinese traditional culture on CCTV, museums, temples, historical architectures, antique shops, etc.

I want to point out that the knowledge I mentioned in post # 9 is common sense to those with immense erudition.

@Leeyah

connoisseur of Chinese arts & history

No, no. Not me. Not me. Hehe. 不敢当啊。

who even gave you an excellent piece of advice

黄君实 who once worked in Christie and now works in sothebys once said in a TV show that he saw many genuine things in museums but many fake ones in auction houses.

Cheers!

Edited July 8, 2009 at 09:27 AM by studentyoung

[itchy]

when do you suggest the piece was made?

the base mark is cast which can explain why the characters aren't sharp.

thanks

[jbradfor]

1990's?

[itchy]

upon closer inspection the deer on the other side has a lingzhi in its mouth.

i am quite sure the zhadou is ming or early qing at the latest.

[imron]

I think that studentyoung's point was not so much that it didn't have a lingzhi in its mouth, but that in at least one picture, it has a flower in its mouth, which was supposedly inconsistent with the time period.

[studentyoung]

the base mark is cast which can explain why the characters aren't sharp

OP, how can you explain characters were well cast on bronze wares in even Zhou Dynasty (BC1046 - BC 771)?

upon closer inspection the deer on the other side has a lingzhi in its mouth.

i am quite sure the zhadou is ming or early qing at the latest.

Sigh~ ~! I understand how you feel completely, OP. I wonder if you know someone else who is in calligraphy and Chinese painting. Perhaps, you can let this one to check the patterns and the marks for you. The style & skill of the painting on the zhadou doesn't look like in Ming or Qing Dynasty. (Please go visit a China's museum and find similiar things at the same periods and compare exhibits and your zhadou.)

What’s more a zhadou is usually very common daily life goods in Ming Dynasty to hold food debris (like fish bones, chicken bones, fruit peels, etc.), which doesn’t need to set a lucky date (吉日) to make such a common thing.

Cheers!

Edited July 9, 2009 at 02:18 AM by studentyoung