HSK vocab vs vocab in HSK test

[Scoobyqueen]

I am going through some HSK material as I find it a useful way to practice a large variety of vocabulary within just a few texts.

The question has sometimes been asked here - if practising all the HSK vocab (level 1-4) helps pass the actual HSK test. I have noticed that a significant number (10-15 percent) of the more idiomatic expressions especially found in the listening sections 1 and 2 cannot be readily found on the HSK. Often understanding that very expression is key to answering the question.

I have listed some of the words and expressions found in mock and real tests which could not be found as words or expressions in the HSK vocab lists. The objective here is just to show that it is not enough to rely on the HSK vobab list. The idiomatic expressions, which seem to be important to pass the listening section, are often not included.

想来想去 think something over

走下坡路 go down hill/from bad to worse

起早贪黑 work from dawn til dusk

一千二净 thoroughly/completely (eg forget)

搁下discontinue

下海了 go into business

多极 - varied

挤满 - overfilled/crammed

熙熙攘攘 - brouhaha

站稳 - keep one`s footing

当真 take seriously

不过如此 - so so

得奖 win a prize

讲究 pay particular attention to

尴尬 embarrassed

魁伟 tall and big

强词夺理 - argue irrationally

一事无成 - dont achieve anything

毋庸 - no need for

八成得黄- probably/highly likely

一转眼 - in an instant

巴不得 - hoping for something

抗抑郁-anti-depressant

别提-you can imagine

闭门羹 - given the cold shoulder

宣泄 - get something off one's chest

拍马屁 -flatter someone (falsely), boot licking

奇形怪状 - peculiarly shaped

百姓 - common people

占上风 - gain the upper hand

The following three were found in three different Qs within same section 1:

犯得着 worthwhile

谁是谁非 right or wrong

白说 waste one's breath

Edited October 11, 2009 at 04:09 PM by Scoobyqueen
more additions

[Meng Lelan]

I have seen and used the HSK word/vocabulary lists, I myself am surprised I don't see idioms as part of those lists, or maybe I was looking in the wrong place?

[trevelyan]

The vocabulary lists change over time and are not intended to be comprehensive (note the appearance of topical proper nouns in the reading passages). This is why it's important to take a lot of practice hsk tests in addition to working through the vocabulary. Vocab review is necessary but not sufficient.

[imron]

I have a book that states for the HSK advanced, 25% of the materials will be words not in the official HSK vocab list.

[Scoobyqueen]

and are not intended to be comprehensive

I agree. However, to call it "HSK" vocab list may therefore be misleading as HSK refers directly to the exam.

[Artem]

It's not misleading at all. HSK is the core list of vocabulary you should know for the test. However, the test isn't intended to test how much vocabulary you know, but rather given a certain amount of vocabulary how can you tackle a passage that is mostly known vocabulary with additional words that you have to figure out from context. It's not comprehensive on purpose.

If you actually get the HSK list from a book of some sorts, they tend to tell you generally how much of the total vocabulary comes from each level and how much comes from outside of the list.

[Scoobyqueen]

but rather given a certain amount of vocabulary how can you tackle a passage that is mostly known vocabulary with additional words that you have to figure out from context.

How does that then work for some chengyus or some colloquial idioms where it's a short sentence and not much else to give it away?

A quick example

你们犯得着冒着大雨去爬山吗? = 你们 x 冒着大雨去爬山吗?

说话人的意思是?

Edited September 19, 2009 at 12:02 PM by Scoobyqueen

[leeyah]

你们犯得着冒着大雨去爬山吗? = 你们 x 冒着大雨去爬山吗?

what does the speaker mean?

One of the meanings of the verb 犯 is 费, so here 犯得着 = 值得费力 >> Do you think it's worth the effort to climb the mountain in the pouring rain?

[leeyah]

你们犯得着冒着大雨去爬山吗? = 你们觉得犯得上冒着大雨去爬山吗?

[Artem]

犯 is on the list of hsk characters you need to know

[Scoobyqueen]

犯 is on the list of hsk characters you need to know

Knowing a character's individual meaning and knowing its meaning when combined with other characters or part of an idiomatic expression are two different things. Here 犯 seems removed from its original meaning. But this is just an example. There are a whole host of others like this one.

[Artem]

Yes, but if you had exposure to this character often, it can help understand the meaning of it. The meaning here isn't that far away as you might think. 犯 sometimes means 做出(违法的或不应该做的事情) . Also being exposed to uses of 着（zhao2）should help you narrow down the choices on a multiple choice test.

But I think in this particular sentence, if you understand everything else, it is reasonable to expect that you can figure out 犯得着 from context.

The reason the tests do this is so it test your overall Chinese, not how well you prepare for the test specifically. It's not unreasonable to think that a student at intermediate level knows 犯得上 and can relate that to 犯得着.

Yes, sometimes it is harder to figure it out than other times, but that's the design of the test. Plus, you really don't need to know everything to get top scores. An 8 is about 82-84% correct. The test doesn't expect you to know every single word.

[leeyah]

@ Artem: Well said.

@ Scoobyqueen: Bear in mind that learning a language as complicated as Chinese involves many different approaches. Learning characters and their individual meanings is of course a priority, but it is by far not enough, other aspects of learning shouldn't be neglected either. For example, understanding Chinese grammar (especially complements, 补语) is great help and is actually essential in mastering advanced level vocabulary, as in the sentence you gave: it is the 得着 bit which determines the meaning of 犯, it implies that something is doable as in >> 摸得着 which can be touched, palpable, 开得着 switchable, 猜得着 guessable, 打得着 able to whatever the 打 stands for in a phrase, eg. 打车,打火机, etc Then there's its sister-phrase 得上 and of course its 否定式. The same goes for 搁下 above where 下 is the essential (& grammatical) part of the word, then there's also 得住/不住 & many more. Give it more time and I'm sure you'll feel the progress.

[Artem]

Right, to go along with what Leeyah said. A lot of those word in the original post are actually word phrases and aren't taught together for that reason.

Take for example,

想来想去

It's not listed in the HSK vocab last because that's not an actual word, but rather a grammar structure (which is listed under the grammar points required for HSK).

V来V去 just means do V back and forth, over and over, etc

or take for example,

走下坡路

That's just a VO phrase that's used to represent abstract ideas. 走 is go, 下 is down, 坡 is sloped/slant, 路 is road, so it means go down a sloped road (or hill, etc). In context it shouldn't be hard to figure out that some abstract object going downhill means it is on the decline (same phrase in English actually)

得奖 is also just a VO phrase. 得 means to obtain, 奖 means prize/award.

毋庸 is a set word, but shouldn't be too hard to figure out. 庸 is one of HSK words meaning to need. 毋 is an older alternative form of 无.

I recommend when preparing for HSK vocabulary to read a lot of HSK reading prep materials, instead of just depending on the list of words.

[Scoobyqueen]

It's not listed in the HSK vocab last because that's not an actual word

My point in the original post was exactly that. Idiomatic and colloquial expressions are often not part of the HSK vocab. However most of the above expressions are listed as full entries in the dictionary in their own right and as fixed expressions (including I think 犯得着). So whilst it is possible to work out what these expressions mean in a split second of a short five second listening comprehension, there would be some merit in including the common ones in the HSK vocab list. Incidentally many of these idiomatic expressions are also useful which would be an added bonus. Also there are a number of chengyus and indeed idiomatic phrases similar to the ones above that have been included in the HSK vocab list. It just seems odd that some are included whilst others arent.

Edited September 19, 2009 at 06:47 PM by Scoobyqueen

[renzhe]

I wouldn't consider some of those to be vocabulary.

X 来 X 去 is a phrase that can be used with different verbs.

X 极 can also be used with any adjective to mean "extremely X".

得奖 is two words, "receive" and "prize". Both are in the HSK vocab lists.

讲究 is in HSK 3.

It's annoying when phrases like this pop up in the middle of the listening section but, like people say, you're not meant to understand every word.

[imron]

X 极 can also be used with any adjective to mean "extremely X".

You will almost certainly need a 了 after the 极 in this situation.

[Meng Lelan]

t's annoying when phrases like this pop up in the middle of the listening section but, like people say, you're not meant to understand every word.

I hadn't known this until I bought a set of HSK listening practice exams. I'm not planning to take the HSK but anyway ---- I originally thought you have to hear every single word in the sentence to answer correctly but it seems like I only have to hear two or three key words to answer correctly. Is this what the listening section is turning out to be like? Is this what the vocabulary in the HSK turning out to be like, that you aren't expected to know 100% of the words assigned to your level?

[imron]

but it seems like I only have to hear two or three key words to answer correctly.

Sometimes they are tricky though, and make a number of incorrect answers with a few key words so if you heard the keyword but not what was going on then you'll make a mistake.

[renzhe]

The HSK is meant to be a comprehensive test of overall Chinese ability.

If they only used a limited number of words from a specially prepared list, then it would be a rather artificial exam.

Besides, those lists found around the internet are almost a decade old.

It's a good guideline, and most of those are important words, but you will always run into occasional words you don't understand in real life, and the test should mirror this if it is to test your language level.