webmagnets Posted October 7, 2009 at 07:24 PM Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 at 07:24 PM Does 他们抬起头来 mean "they tilt their heads"? If so, what role does "来" play in the sentence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted October 7, 2009 at 07:48 PM Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 at 07:48 PM It means "they raise their heads up". 来 is a part of the 起来. It expresses the onset of an action, and stresses the point when they raised their heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webmagnets Posted October 7, 2009 at 07:52 PM Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 at 07:52 PM Thank you. Is 来 a preposition in this phrase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted October 7, 2009 at 07:59 PM Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 at 07:59 PM No. 起来 is a complement indicating the beginning of an action. You need to look up complements, they are a very important part of Chinese, and often different than from things are expressed in other languages. At least that's how I understand this sentence <-- disclaimer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webmagnets Posted October 7, 2009 at 09:32 PM Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 at 09:32 PM I see that lai, dou, wan, etc are complements. I have tried to look up 起来 in the complements section my grammar books and online. Can someone please refer me to somewhere (online or offline) where this complement is discussed or at least defined? Also, can a complement be split up such as in 抬起头来? (notice that 头 is between the complement.) p.s. - If I am asking too many questions, please let someone else have a try so I don't overwhelm any one particular person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 7, 2009 at 11:23 PM Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 at 11:23 PM I think 起來 is the only complement I know of that can be split. Generally, if you use 起來 in a sentence with an object, the object would have to be placed in between 起 and 來. Take a look at this thread for further discussion of 起來: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/8700-complex-directional-complements Do feel free to ask as many questions as you like if anything's not clear to you, that's what we're here for! If we don't feel like replying we generally won't, don't worry ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YuehanHao Posted October 7, 2009 at 11:47 PM Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 at 11:47 PM I am not good in Chinese and can never remember what to do when it comes to grammar, but I have a book that says objects come after simple DCs (e.g., 小王拿走了我的书), but for a compound DC, it is more usual to split and insert the object or (especially) place word before 来 or 去. (e.g., 他从书包里拿出一本书来）. 约翰好 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted October 8, 2009 at 02:44 AM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 02:44 AM think 起來 is the only complement I know of that can be split. Quite a few can be split actually. 进门来、下山去、上楼来、回家去 etc and the list just goes on. They can also be paired with verbs 拿起本书来 or adjectives as well 匆匆地回家去. Anyway. Just wanted to clear that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 8, 2009 at 03:55 AM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 03:55 AM You're absolutely right of course, I shouldn't be replying to threads on grammar at 07:23 in the morning...which isn't much of an excuse, but I am glad to stand corrected! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted October 8, 2009 at 04:20 AM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 04:20 AM Oh gosh, don't feel bad about it at all. I have the exact same problem. But mine for some reason seems to have nothing to do with time of day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
尼奥思维系 Posted October 8, 2009 at 04:35 AM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 04:35 AM 来 is a part of the 起来. It expresses the onset of an action, and stresses the point when they raised their heads. Renzhe . I'm interested in this theory and am not sure about your meaning. To the OP. A book you might find interesting is 'Negation in Chinese' by 李梅 . They discuss aspect on page 184 onwards and divide 'resultative verb complements(RVC's) into directional and resultative. 起来. comes under the directional rvc's umbrella. It says the kind similar to 起来.which include shang/xia/jin/chu/hui/guo and kai convey deictic/B] information in addition to lexical information. The usage of lai implies towards the speaker and qu implies away from the speaker and is deictic. So if you are in a room you can say to someone 'jin lai' when you want them to come towards you. When you are both outside a room you may say 'jin qu' as you wish your partner to move away from you into the room. I had a discussion with my wife about this. I'm really sad I know.The waiter at our hotel said 'wo gei ni songlai' in reference to some bags we were taking to my room.I couldn't work out why she did not say 'songqu' but it makes sense after I realise that she wants to take the bags towards my room. My point is that aren't we dealing with deictic meaning here? Mind you when I think of rising their heads up it may imply rising a head towards the sky as opposed to towards a person or specified object so I'm curious about the meaning of lai in the deictic sense. I think it may ne relevant to this discussion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted October 8, 2009 at 04:48 AM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 04:48 AM The waiter at our hotel said 'wo gei ni songlai' in reference to some bags we were taking to my room. This is actually incorrect grammar but a very common thing that is said. Even native speakers say this wrong. So, strictly speaking it is wrong but not from 口语 point of view. In terms of your confusion of Renzhe's post I'm not following where you aren't following. 起来 can be split up just like many other things in Chinese {ie verb-object 吃饭 which operates as a verb but can be split up and have other things inserted in between}. 起来 is the same where it retains it's meaning but other things can be paired with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
尼奥思维系 Posted October 8, 2009 at 05:03 AM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 05:03 AM Righto. My wife said songlai or songqu could be used. If its just a 口语 thing I shan't worry. I think I highlighted renzhe's definition but here it is again'来 is a part of the 起来. It expresses the onset of an action, and stresses the point when they raised their heads. ' I'm interested in why we would see this as a point in time as opposed to deictic meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artem Posted October 8, 2009 at 05:12 AM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 05:12 AM 来 in 起来 isn't like 回来 （回去）, it is not indicating direction toward the speaker. 抬起头 is better translated as holding your head up, while 抬起头来 is best translated as lift up your head. 起来 carries a connotation of change of state （I want to say always, but I'm sure someone will think of something that proves me wrong on the always part. Never say always!). It's hard to explain in English, explaining in Chinese makes more sense: V起 - 表示动作使某事物出现/表示动作涉及到某事物 V起来 - 表示动作开始并继续 As a general rule of thumb is if you want to add a two character complement "AB" to a VO, you have to say VAOB, not VOAB. I hope that makes sense. Of course, 起 and 起来 has other uses, but I don't want to complicate things more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
尼奥思维系 Posted October 8, 2009 at 05:27 AM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 05:27 AM Thanks Artem, muyongshi and others on this thread. I see that in qilai now and that's useful to know. In the past people have used qilai to ask whether certain medical symptoms have occurred( I won't get too personal!) and I can see why qilai is used now for this change of state. I guess I always had an implicit understanding of how that was used but it certainly helps to understand these complements explicitly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted October 8, 2009 at 05:56 AM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 05:56 AM (edited) 起来 as a complement can have different implications: 1) the onset of an action, 2) a movement upwards. In your sentence 他们抬起头来, it's difficult to say for sure the implication of 起来 without context. Anyway, if the verb (拾) takes an object (头), then the object should be placed between the syllables of the complement. Also, sometimes the final syllable of the complement is omitted. (I'm not a native speaker, but my feeling is that the final syllable tends to be omitted if the sentence will continue, whilst it is kept if it appears at the end of the sentence. This is an issue of style rather than grammar.) Eg. 他们拾起头，放下书，赶回家去了。 Edited October 8, 2009 at 03:50 PM by anonymoose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted October 8, 2009 at 02:19 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 02:19 PM In your sentence 他们抬起头来, the 起来 implies a movement upwards (lifting his head up) and not the commencement of the action. I don't know, I feel that both are valid interpretations of the sentence, in the absence of further context. If it were "站起来", I'd agree that it's almost certainly directional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted October 8, 2009 at 03:47 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 at 03:47 PM I don't know, I feel that both are valid interpretations of the sentence, in the absence of further context. Yes, I agree. Without context it's difficult to say. And on second thoughts, in this particular example, I think the two interpretations of 起来 kind of merge together anyway. I've edited my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altair Posted October 18, 2009 at 09:40 PM Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 at 09:40 PM 抬起头 is better translated as holding your head up, while 抬起头来 is best translated as lift up your head. 起来 carries a connotation of change of state V起 - 表示动作使某事物出现/表示动作涉及到某事物V起来 - 表示动作开始并继续 Would it be fair to say that 抬起头 emphasizes the position reached and 抬起头来 emphasizes the movement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylor04 Posted October 19, 2009 at 02:05 AM Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 at 02:05 AM it is more usual to split and insert the object or (especially) place word before 来 or 去. (e.g., 他从书包里拿出一本书来 I'm not 100% sure but isn't this sentence incorrect? Wouldn't it be better to say 他从书包里拿出来了一本书? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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