Supplementing classes with tutors or language partners

[marco-polo]

I'm enrolled in an intensive program for beginners at Tsinghua and have noticed that a lot of students in the beginning classes spend substantial amounts of time every week working on conversational Chinese with tutors or language partners. We've had all of one month of classes at this point, so I think the range of conversation must be pretty limited. I believe that in the early stages of learning the language getting the basics down correctly and focusing on what's being taught in class is a better use of one's time than trying to have conversations, but I'm willing to be corrected. What would be the advice of people on this forum who have taken their Chinese to a high level about this issue?

[renzhe]

I haven't taken my Chinese to a high level, but I agree that you should try to nail the basics (as well as possible and as quickly as possible) in the beginning.

But you can also nail the basics with a tutor. It doesn't have to be conversation practice, they could also listen to/correct your tones, provide additional explanations for tricky words/sentence patterns, or explain parts of the lessons that were confusing.

I know that speaking early, speaking often seems to be a popular approach to language learning, but the more I learn Chinese, the more I feel that "passive first, active second" is a better approach here. First lots of listening, until you can follow conversations, then the fluency will come on its own. The more often you repeat your own mistakes, the harder it will become to ditch them later.

[anonymoose]

We've had all of one month of classes at this point, so I think the range of conversation must be pretty limited.

I suspect most of the conversation is about Chinese in English, rather than being in Chinese.

I know different people learn in different ways, but personally, I disagree with Renzhe's "passive first, active second" approach. I think you will not internalise what you've learnt as well if you don't try to actively use it, and correct it as you go along. That's perhaps where a language partner would be able to help you - they could point out your mistakes.

Anyway, you'll have to find the way that works best for you. You could try getting a language partner to see if you benefit from it, and if not, then discontinue.

[renzhe]

I think you will not internalise what you've learnt as well if you don't try to actively use it, and correct it as you go along.

Actively using what you've learnt will help you internalise it faster, no doubt. It can be a good idea, especially if you base it on the coursework you've covered and variations thereof.

But it can also lead to bad habits that are hard to correct later. Especially when dealing with tones. People tend to develop habits, and if you make too many mistakes for a long time, you won't manage to get all of them corrected. So it's a trade-off in a way.

I had to go the passive way out of necessity, not choice, as I had very little chance to practice here. But I got a lot of listening practice and lots of reading. My conversational skills are still catching up. However, I find that I've managed to avoid some of the pitfalls that seem to be common among Chinese learners. I think it's because I have a feeling for how things should sound due to all the listening.

But there are many paths to the summit, and this might be off-topic here. In any case, there are many things one can do with a language tutor.

Edited October 29, 2009 at 01:02 PM by renzhe

[morningdew]

Everyone has a different learning style, but I found that at any point in the Chinese language learning process, one should contantly try to conversate with locals. It is very important to not only grow in the classroom, but also grow outside of the classroom. Practicing conversational skills early on and making many mistakes while at it won't damage your foundation building, it will only enhance your conversational Chinese.

[Scoobyqueen]

Apparently for one-to-one lessons you learn something like twice as much (or the benefit is doubled) compared to group lessons. Maybe they are focusing on their weaknesses (for some this might be grammar, others oral etc) which is a good thing.

[abcdefg]

Practicing conversational skills early on and making many mistakes while at it won't damage your foundation building, it will only enhance your conversational Chinese.

I'm definitely in this camp, though perhaps I'm not qualified to comment since my Chinese is not really at a high level. I can communicate fairly well, although admittedly with errors. I don't want to be a "bookish" Chinese learner who can do the lessons well but cannot even order lunch.

Edited October 30, 2009 at 04:00 AM by abcdefg

[renzhe]

I have personally found that the crucial question is whether you're aware of the mistakes you're making. Either by spotting them yourselves and making a note, or by being corrected every time you make one. If you are aware of your mistakes, then using the language is very useful practice. If you keep making the same mistakes without noticing, and keep reinforcing incorrect usage and pronunciation (which might be understandable, but is still wrong), you're gaining many bad habits which you will have to painfully correct later, and many people never manage to correct them (see the "foreigner tone").

If you want to become fluent, then you will need to talk, and talk a lot. No arguments there. But mistakes are mistakes, and should be fixed and avoided for the most part, as mistakes repeated 30 times are a liability.

I guess my point is that it is very important to be exposed to lots of correct language early on. And I mean lots. Making 30 mistakes per sentence over 3 years (and expecting a taxi driver to correct all of them) is recipe for disaster. You'll become fluent, but fluent in Tarzan Chinese. You shouldn't be afraid to make mistakes and be corrected, but you shouldn't go out of your way to make them either.

None of this matters for the question the OP posed, though. There are many things you can do with a language tutor, including proper conversation at a level that is useful and instructive for you.

EDIT: And I still have a feeling like I didn't express myself clearly

[animal world]

[i'm enrolled in an intensive program for beginners at Tsinghua and have noticed that a lot of students in the beginning classes spend substantial amounts of time every week working on conversational Chinese with tutors or language partners.]

Since the course is already intensive it may be overkill to employ outside tutors as well so early in the game.

Nothing is perfect and that includes the most desirable way to learn Chinese or anything else. Not sure such a thing even exists. In classroom environments (high school and universities) i've learned a lot despite mediocre and uninspiring teachers. My commitment of wanting to learn/know the subject probably was key. With a few other subjects, i learned nothing with mediocre teachers and dull textbooks. Beforehand i had convinced myself that i wouldn't have any savvy for the subject.

In other words, i think one's own commitment and self-confidence is the most important ingredient in mastering anything. With whatever method you follow, there may be advantages and disadvantages. The ideal would be one-on-one study with the perfect teacher in terms of subject knowledge, enthusiasm and ability to motivate. Such opportunities are rare.

I tend to agree with Renzhe that it is better to have a foundation of knowledge before putting it into practice conversationally. Rome wasn't built in a day but what remains standing of its empire is rather impressive

[abcdefg]

If you keep making the same mistakes without noticing, and keep reinforcing incorrect usage and pronunciation (which might be understandable, but is still wrong), you're gaining many bad habits which you will have to painfully correct later, and many people never manage to correct them...

Well said and I will take your comment to heart. I do indeed run the risk of winding up speaking "Tarzan Chinese." Thanks for your insight.

[natra]

I studied abroad at Nankai in Tianjin for 1 year. I had a lot of "language partners," but none of them were interested in really speaking Chinese with me consistently.

My personal opinion simply based on experience -- the term "language partner" is just a way of making you a free personal English tutor.

Don't get me wrong. Having Chinese friends with whom you speak English is fine. However, do not expect to make progress in speaking with them at all.

What did I do after I came to this conclusion? I paid an undergraduate in the college for teaching Chinese as a second language ¥20/hour to have conversations with me on an article or topic that I designated before hand. We met a few days a week like for a semester, and I was able to have language sessions /only/ in Chinese without having to deal with the "but you're my language partner" bs. Also, someone you are paying is going to give you more help than someone just there for the sole purpose of improving their English.

[Jive Turkey]

I also agree that "language partners" or "language exchange" is usually a waste of time. They were certainly a waste of time for me, from the time I was a beginner until now. I've found that even when my Chinese skills were better than the other person's English, they still wanted to try to use English to explain things. There seems to be an expectation that there is just no way that foreigner's Chinese could be better than their language exchange partner's English.

Developing relationships in which you will use Chinese is HARD, and it is not something you should expect to happen quickly. For the first year or so of learning in Taiwan, I mainly used Chinese for transactional interactions. It seems to me that meaningful social interaction only comes when, well, you and the other person or people have something to talk about, i.e., you've got something in common. My first real social interaction with Chinese people was with a group of adult students I taught. We developed relationships outside of class.

I can count on one hand the number of relationships I have had with Chinese people that actually had an impact on my Chinese. In all of these relationships, the foundation of the relationship was not an objective of improving my Chinese or the other person's English. We had stuff in common, such as both of us being language teachers, both having kids the same age, etc.

If I were to go back 10 years to when I started learning, I would do what posters above have suggested: pay for out-of-class opportunities to use Chinese. Whether it is to just practice reading aloud, or to discuss a short article, I think this will have much more benefit for the elementary learner than sitting down with a person whose objective is the opposite of yours: to speak English. The monetary incentive aligns the Chinese interlocutor's aims with yours: to get you speaking more Chinese.

[abcdefg]

I paid an undergraduate in the college for teaching Chinese as a second language ¥20/hour to have conversations with me on an article or topic that I designated before hand.

I did the same earlier this year and found it highly beneficial as well as fun.

...pay for out-of-class opportunities to use Chinese.

Money well spent.

I had two different student-tutors. One helped me with writing and the other with reading since those are my weakest links. We only spoke Chinese, so I got some focused conversation practice as well.

I found I had to structure it very clearly and set the ground rules to keep us just from wandering around and wasting time. Had to make it clear that we had tasks to do and were not just "hanging out."

[Jive Turkey]

I found I had to structure it very clearly and set the ground rules to keep us just from wandering around and wasting time. Had to make it clear that we had tasks to do and were not just "hanging out."

Your post highlights that even when you are paying, you still have to set the rules and objectives in order to maintain focus an make progress. That is very difficult, if not impossible to do with someone you are not paying.

[anonymoose]

Yes, it is difficult to find anyone who is willing or able to actually teach you Chinese, especially if you are not paying them.

However, I have made a number of Chinese friends, with whom I speak almost exclusively Chinese. They don't act as tutors, in that they rarely try to teach me anything unless I specifically ask, but at least it is possible to find Chinese friends who won't speak English all the time. [Do keep in mind, though, that they have as much "right" to use you for practice as you use them.]

[marco-polo]

Thanks to everyone who contributed answers to my question. The responses were all very helpful to me in figuring out how to proceed. I've decided to look for a tutor to coach me on pronunciation, focusing in the first place on making sure I can read properly from the texts we've covered in class. With hard work, I'm capable of getting to grips with other aspects of this stage of learning Chinese (grammar, characters, etc.), but I think this is one area in which tutoring would really help.

I may be able to find a graduate student from another university to work with me. Does anyone have any advice as to what would be a fair hourly rate for this kind of work?

[anonymoose]

I've seen Chinese students advertising tuition for about 30-40 yuan per hour in Shanghai. If you will be doing basic things that won't require the person to do much preparation in their own time, then I think 30 yuan should be OK.

[wushijiao]

If I were to go back 10 years to when I started learning, I would do what posters above have suggested: pay for out-of-class opportunities to use Chinese. Whether it is to just practice reading aloud, or to discuss a short article, I think this will have much more benefit for the elementary learner than sitting down with a person whose objective is the opposite of yours: to speak English.

This is why I'm paying for a Cantonese tutor right now (actually, it's just someone willing to talk to me in Cantonese, which essentially

. Although maybe I lack charisma? ). However, at some point when my level is clearly better than theirs, then I expect it to be much easier to use it in regular conservations with people (who can speak decent, but not 100% comfortable English).

When learning Mandarin though, I was fortunate enough to be in Henan, where it's really easy to use Mandarin, socio-linguistically. After a few months, you can be as competent (or at least as conversant) as people who have supposedly been learning English for around 10 years.

[anonymoose]

I'm paying for a Cantonese tutor right now (actually, it's just someone willing to talk to me in Cantonese

Can that person explain anything about grammar or pronunciation (including tones) in Cantonese? I'm toying with the idea of paying someone to help me with Shanghainese, but so far I've not come across any native speakers with any clue about the language other than the ability to speak it.

[wushijiao]

Can that person explain anything about grammar or pronunciation (including tones) in Cantonese?

Actually, she is one of the rare people who is trained in the subject and knows Jyutping, Yale, the tones, and of course, characters. She also is good at speaking to me at a slightly than higher level than I need (L +1). With that said, her attitudes towards Cantonese and her L2 acquisition theory ideas are quite different from mine. As far as grammar, she can explain that, but there's not much need since I have many textbooks that explain that, and Cantonese grammar isn't hard if you know Mandarin.

Yes, finding a qualified Shanghainese teacher would be almost impossible. On the other hand, you could always take a textbook to a park, and ask the old people if they can explain the lesson to you. Maybe you'll get a lesson for free!

At the very least, you could try paying people. But, I wouldn't have high expectations, and I'd try to structure it all myself first.