Position of 给

[xianhua]

A native Chinese writer recently corrected my sentence to read:

你们能不能介绍流行音乐给我?

I originally put the 给我 before 介绍. Can anyone explain why the 给 should go at the end?

[HashiriKata]

For this particular verb 介绍, 给 needs to follow it to mean "TO someone".

(You're perhaps more familiar with "给X+Verb", but this means "do something FOR X")

[jbradfor]

Humm. For which other verbs does the 给 commonly go after the verb?

[chrix]

Li and Thompson (Mandarin Chinese - A functional reference grammar) devote their entire chapter 10 to 給

1. BENEFACTIVE CONSTRUCTION

Indeed, S 給 R V O (S=Subject, R=Recipient, O=Object) is indeed a benefactive construction. While 為 can also appear in this position and unrestricted in usage, 給 can only appear with certain verbs in this way.

他為我唱歌 she sings for me 他給我道歉 he apologises to me

2. INDIRECT OBJECT CONSTRUCTION

For an indict object construction, you usually get two possible forms:

1. S V O 給 R : 我扔了那塊肉給他

2. S V 給 R O: 我扔給他那塊肉

There are slight functional differences between the two that need not concern us here.

Now they note that there are ditransitive verbs that mark their indirect objects with 給 obligatorily, and those that do optionally, and those that do not occur with it. They give the following verbs:

Verbs that obligatorily mark their indirect object with 給:

遞、分、拿、帶、寄、交、賣、丟、扔、輸、寫、租、留、打（電話）、踢、搬、推

Verbs that optionally mark their indirect object with 給:

送、贈、教、賞、賜、加、傳、還、陪、付、許、借

Verbs that do not mark their indirect object with 給:

給、告訴、答應、回答、問、偷、請教、贏、搶、奪

Now there is one more thing complicating matters: there's been a tendency in Mandarin for a number of verbs to allow their indirect objects preverbally, just like a benefactive construction. These verbs include 寫、買、留、打(電話)

So according to Li and Thompson, you can get the variation:

a. 我送了一本書給他

b. 我給他送了一本書

[jbradfor]

OK, thanks. That actually makes sense, which scares me a bit.

What I get out of this is that:

1. If there is no physical object, and instead something is being done for someone else, 给 comes before the verb.
   
2. If an actual physical object is being given (i.e. there is a direct object, the item being given), then 给 is used to indicate the indirect object (the person receiving the direct object), and the 给+R comes after the verb, and either before or after the direct object, depending on the phase of the moon.
   
3. Like everything else in life, people don't always use it the way the grammar books says they should. Which is why for most of us the first 给 construction that we learn, 他给我打电话, is an exception, and forever confuses us.
   

The part I don't understand is where to draw the line between a "benefactive construction" and those that "do not mark their indirect object with 給". Some seem very similar in that the "object" being "transferred" is abstract. e.g. why does "他給我道歉" count as a "benefactive construction" when you are transferring an apology, while "他問我一個問題 counts as a "do not mark their indirect object with 給" when you a transferring a question.

[starb6]

你们能不能介绍流行音乐给我?

I don't think this sentence is wrong.just it emphasizes different part with another sentence"你们能不能给我介绍流行音乐?'.

if you say this way (你们能不能介绍流行音乐给我?), it means you are recommending the pop songs to ME, not to others, not to Mark, Matt or Allen, etc, etc... you should give '给我' a stress when speaking it.

[HashiriKata]

Humm. For which other verbs does the 给 commonly go after the verb?

In some situations, generalisations may confuse, for that reason, I phrased my reply as "For this particular verb 介绍"

(Even with 介绍, you can still have 给 preceding it, to render such phrases as 给人介绍 (In the right context, nothing wrong with this), but I was trying to be pragmatic in my reply )

Edited November 17, 2009 at 09:00 AM by HashiriKata
correcting typos

[chrix]

I've actually been corrected by native speakers when I used "他给我打电话".

As far as 道歉 goes, this might be because it is not ditransitive, since it can't take a direct object. Unfortunately they don't really discuss this issue at any length...

[HashiriKata]

As far as 道歉 goes, this might be because it is not ditransitive, since it can't take a direct object. Unfortunately they don't really discuss this issue at any length...

I haven't heard "他給我道歉" (I haven't heard many things, BTW! ) and I think it would be safer to say 他向我道歉.

[chrix]

yes, I've heard 向我道歉 more often as well. There's lots of google hits for 给我道歉 though, I'm not sure if it's personal or regional variation or what...

[xianhua]

Thanks for the replies. My wife (a native speaker) informs me that during their Chinese grammar classes in high school, they were told by the teacher that many of their ordinary sentence constructions were gramatically incorrect. To this degree, I think I'll worry less about understanding sentence patterns and rules, and focus more on copying native speakers.

[chrix]

why not do both? Read a good grammar book and then observe real language use measured against this background. Chinese has grammatical rules like any other language, and it surely helps your understanding of how the language works. Every language has variation and different registers etc., so of course a grammar book will not reflect all of this variation. But it can still give some kind of guidance.

[starb6]

yes, I've heard 向我道歉 more often as well. There's lots of google hits for 给我道歉 though, I'm not sure if it's personal or regional variation or what...

给我道歉 is correct. maybe more informal than '向我道歉. But I think they are very similar, both of them are correct.

[calibre2001]

I have a question.

Does 他給我怕 mean 'He was frightened by me' or 'He frightened me'?

My understanding of 給 would be the latter but after listening to some folks speaking I'm convinced it's the former (i.e. usage same as 被）.

Can somebody clarify?

If so how to differentiate the usage of 給 here? Thanks.

[creamyhorror]

Are you sure 給我怕 is correct grammatically? It doesn't seem quite right to me...but 給我吓 does.

他給我吓死了 = he really gave me a shock OR I really gave him a shock (both seem possible)

那事情給我吓死了 = it really shocked me

I think 給我吓 can mean both things. I recommend just going by context.

edit: I'm wondering if 给我怕 is actually valid, if it's equivalent to 让我怕. "请不要再让我害怕了" = "Please don't let me be scared any more"...this seems sort of possible. But switch it to 给 and remove 请 and I'm not so sure: "不要再给我害怕了". It sounds more like "Don't be scared any more"/"I want you not to get scared any more".

[calibre2001]

The sentence is based on colloquial mandarin speech I personally came across.

But my point here really is the usage of 給 here. Any general rule of thumb?

[creamyhorror]

Can you provide a longer sentence so we can see the context? It might depend on the exact verb being used.

給 can mean both 让 and 被, which is why the ambiguity is arising.

那事情給我吓死了 versus 猫给我吓跑了

Then 給 can also be used in a 'benefactive construction': 他给我道歉. (See post #4.)

[calibre2001]

A bit of background:

陸大有 and his 大師哥 were captured by 6 guys. 大師哥 threatenned to kill himself and he pretended to do so. The 6 guys eventually discovered he was faking it. Then came this:

陸大有只道大師哥真的給他們弄死了，放聲大哭

[creamyhorror]

"陸大有只道大師哥真的給他們弄死了，放聲大哭"

In this case 被 is naturally the meaning of 給.

For a rule of thumb, you just have to remember it has multiple meanings and learn to apply them flexibly. It's like "for" in English, which is flexible and possesses multiple meanings as well.