A Cautionary Tale: Chinese as a Hobby

[abcdefg]

This forum has been very helpful to me and I’ve learned a lot about how I might have tackled this language learning project better. Thought I’d share for the sake of others who are not on an academic track and mainly studying Chinese as a hobby.

When I first visited China about 3 years ago I had been exploring East Asia simply because I enjoy foreign travel. In the US I’m a physician who works about six months a year in hospital-based Emergency Medicine, mainly taking care of serious stuff like motor vehicle accidents, heart attacks and the other things you might have seen on TV shows. The rest of the year I travel and unwind. My job pays well and I’m divorced, so it’s relatively easy to take time off as long as I schedule in advance and do it in blocks of only a few months at a time.

I instantly fell in love with China as a travel destination and decided to learn a little of the language to make it easier to get around. Started with a one-month, absolute-beginner course in Beijing. That was fun and I was exhilarated to find that a little language went a long way. Later in the year I came back to China and did similar month at a school in Shanghai. I wanted to move around to get the feel of living in different places. Later I returned for two months in Zhuhai where I started transitioning from Pinyin to Hanzi.

Well that was also grand, and next time I arranged a three month course in Kunming to give me a hub for getting to know a different part of China as well as learning more Chinese. Subsequently repeated that pattern in Dalian and Harbin. The return on investment felt spectacular and I was pumped up and encouraged. It would be an exaggeration to call myself an itinerant scholar, because everywhere I went I was also a dedicated tourist and sampler of the local pleasures. I avoided ex-pats like the plague and “immersed” as fully as possible. I chatted in Chinese with everyone along the way and had tons of fun.

At home, in between China trips, I listened to lots of Pimsleur and Chinese Pod but since I couldn’t really read or write much, my Chinese remained 90 percent verbal. At each stage along the road I bullied my teachers into focusing on language that would help me navigate daily life in China instead of emphasizing the orderly acquisition of foundation skills. I was consistently impatient and refused to waste my precious time on stuff like 京剧 and 书法. It was my dime and I was not passive; sometimes I was "the student from Hell."

Earlier this year I re-arranged things at work such that I could return to Kunming for a full semester at a private school. By now my bag of tricks was woefully imbalanced and I had to supplement the classes with extensive private tutoring to try and improve in reading and writing. I watched Chinese TV and movies, listened to Chinese songs, and ate all my meals in “locals” joints where foreigners never went.

After the semester was over, I went back to Zhuhai where a tutor helped me more on daily topical conversation. We would “talk movies” for a few days, then we would “talk sports” or “talk seafood” for a few days, and so on. Things were really “clicking” and I could converse with anyone, albeit with many errors.

Thanks to this forum I “got religion” about using SRS tools in the form of ZDT and Anki. Have used them daily while in the US with the principal aim being converting what I knew by ear and could say into things I could also read on the written page. My Anki file has two thousand words and I’m pretty sure I know about that many more, as yet un-entered.

Had hoped to get set up with a few steady Skype oral conversation partners and practice writing back and forth to a couple others. Also had hoped to read simple stories on a regular basis and keep a journal in Chinese, but those things haven’t happened due to a multitude of factors mainly related to flaws in (my) human nature.

After this sojourn in the US, my tones are in the toilet even though I have a larger reading vocabulary. Started out pronouncing the flash card words carefully and clearly out loud, but now usually just sort of mumble them quickly even though I know in my heart it really, really matters. The little grammar that I knew has atrophied beyond repair. I always backslide when I’m here at home; it’s only a matter of degree and I can’t help feeling like a true “eternal beginner.”Even though that may sound Zen and cool, it isn’t meant as a self-compliment.

Here at home I’m flirting with career burnout and will be taking progressively more time off until I hang up the spurs and stethoscope entirely. My goals have gradually changed over time in that now I’d not only like to travel in China, but probably eventually live there. To do that I need to improve my literacy level and I feel a definite sense of urgency about progressing with that task.

Next month I’ll return to China for another go at continuing to build on strengths and remedy weaknesses. I seem to need access to a school and teachers: cannot do it on my own. Looking forward to getting back to China because by now I’ve got good friends there and it feels like more like a homecoming than like going away.

I’ve flagged this post for a moderator to review because it is pretty long and may exceed forum limits.

Edited December 12, 2009 at 11:12 PM by abcdefg

[taylor04]

Definitely never too late. My old roommate lived in China for 8 years and could speak near fluent Mandarin and Cantonese (not an ABC). He got thrown into the second level Chinese class with me because he couldn't read anything. I found that he progressed rather fast. He would take a short story in one of our Chinese learning books and start reading, every single word he didn't know he would write pinyin under it. He knew all the words already, just couldn't read them, while anki is GREAT, its also key to practice reading. I don't know if you have or not, but go by a bunch of basic grammar books and tell your language tutors to correct you EVERY time:mrgreen: Now is also the perfect time to get your tones straight, seeing as you will be relearning basic vocab using anki. You have shoddy foundation so far, but with some time and effort it shouldn't be too hard to fix.

If you take me to China, I'll be your personal tutor for free... please...

[tooironic]

Interesting story... What's the "cautionary tale" exactly?

[taylor04]

I think he's saying to build a proper foundation instead of trying to jump in the deep end

[chrix]

yeah, like renzhe said, if you internalise your mistakes, it takes a lot of effort to get them corrected...

[roddy]

Many thanks for taking the time to write that up.

[Meng Lelan]

What's the "cautionary tale" exactly?

I don't know either. I guess the cautionary tale's message is don't learn Chinese in the first place.

[querido]

I think his warning is that one's Chinese scholarship needs a solid foundation. (abcdefg: Is that right?)

One young pianist accepts the discipline to pause, to learn the scales to the point of great fluidity, before moving on, while another one only learns the fun parts that let him play like those cats down at the juke-joint. Years later, the first one can play "anything", while the second one, needing to play in a different style as tastes change, experiences something like a need to go all the way back to the beginning. This becomes practically impossible.

The problem of needing to lay a foundation in Chinese scholarship, the problem of "plateauing" mentioned in other threads, and the problem of needing to relearn things, are all related, and it seems to me that they are all addressed to some extent by starting with real children's books. Unless you had a Chinese speaking mother, you'll never have those years on her knee... invaluable. But I can't think of a better second-best start than getting started in real first-grade and *not moving forward* without some sufficiently convincing mastery. It seems to me that this should be a solid "A", but renzhe's 80% (for the sake of pushing forward) seems O.K. as long as everything is eventually solid enough.

"What constitutes the foundation" is an interesting question, and "the same stuff that every Chinese person learned who attended public school" seems like a pretty good answer.

Can anyone else argue for a better "second best start"?

[jobin]

sounds great, a...g, but let me say this: china, specifically the chinese govt., ain't really interested in western folks retiring in old 中国. maybe you find work in your trade, marry a sweet young thing, or live near the border and hop back and forth, etc. every visa is limited. i agree with you that china offers lots but also suffers a bad govt outlook-under the surface here, much fear. live out your days in china? give up usa passport? that's a big step.

[Xiwang]

I found your tale to be more inspirational than cautionary. It seems as though you have crafted out a means of living that allows you to do what you want to do. Best wishes to you!

[Meng Lelan]

It seems as though you have crafted out a means of living that allows you to do what you want to do.

Yes, but this is not an option for everyone. Not everyone can stay in China for extended periods of time. Also I don't agree that you have to be in China for a long time to become good at the Chinese language. There are resources outside of China for those cannot be in China long term but want to improve at the Chinese language, but you have to know where those resources are and that you have to have the time and discipline to do it.

[animal world]

abcdefg, thanks for taking the time to write a long post. It made for enjoyable reading. Also want to say that i appreciate your sense of humor. At this point i avoid anything that is funny as it can easily be misinterpreted here. I had written a long response to your post about Chinese brick factories and organ transplants but then decided not to post it after all.

My suggestion to become more rounded in your knowledge of the Chinese language is to start reading about subjects that interest you (Chinese medicine perhaps?). This will give you an impetus to maintain your knowledge of grammar and expand your inventory of characters. The standard reading from textbooks totally bore me and i never spent as much time on as i "ought" to have done; instead i read things that interest me even if they may be above my head at times.

My second suggestion is to find a Chinese mate. This is on my wish list as well (i might even rank this as significantly more valuable than SRS ) but given the twisted irony of fate i'd probably meet a great guy who only speaks Cantonese.

[abcdefg]

I think his warning is that one's Chinese scholarship needs a solid foundation. (abcdefg: Is that right?)

Yes, that was my main point. I appreciate the numerous excellent suggestions.

i agree with you that china offers lots but also suffers a bad govt outlook-under the surface here, much fear. live out your days in china? give up usa passport? that's a big step.

I don't intend to go to that extreme.

[imron]

Can anyone else argue for a better "second best start"?

I'm a big believer in using native materials. The problem I've found with children's books is that the content fails to hold my interest, and I think having content that interests you is also important. The difference between this and the piano player who only chooses music that interests him is that it's still possible to work on the "scales" of the language (pronunciation drills, listening drills, speaking drills, reading drills etc) with content aimed at adult readers.

I also think the problem with plateauing will occur even if following the progression through the Chinese curriculum. The main reason is that after acquiring a bulk of characters, native Chinese learners will start to pick up characters passively because they already know the language they just don't know how to write it yet, and they are able to combine their already existing knowledge of the spoken language to pick up and acquire new characters. This ability is nowhere near as available for people learning Chinese as a foreign language who for the most part still need to actively acquire characters. Once you stop doing that because you can mostly get by and learning new characters requires more effort than the reward gained, then congratulations you've started to hit a plateau.

Don't get me wrong though, I like the idea of using native materials, and if you've found something that works for you, then for sure keep at it.

[querido]

Having verified the nature of the warning, the thread topic, I'll continue for one more post. Imron is far above me in this, so let my advice be from one beginner to another.

The problem I've found with children's books is that the content fails to hold my interest,

Right. We would be opposites in that regard.

and I think having content that interests you is also important.

Yes. But also for many, tempermentally somewhere between us, this is negotiable if a strong case can be made for one study-plan or another; I become interested in a prerequisite once I'm convinced that it is necessary to the understanding of my *real* interest. (Why must I take inorganic before organic, or algebra before calculus?) So, where is my argument that first grade is a necessary or at least wise prerequisite to second, and so on all the way up? I'll trust the judgement of the compilers of the textbook series.

About plateauing: My idea is that if I can do grade X with quality Y, I will probably be able to do grade X+1 with quality Y. A path of clear-cut steps upward could help one continue believing that. For example, leaving first grade about now with 1200 chars/2500 words, I test myself in second grade with a reasonable expectation of success. Having *that* reasonable expectation could help some people. On the contrary, a scenario that seems more likely to leave one on a plateau would be, say, finishing NPCR and looking for some continuation... While the 6th grade graduate has 3400+ chars and remains within the bosom of single publisher's graduated series.

About diminishing returns: I've seen the math. I think it gives an unnecessarily negative impression by measuring progress over the whole language. Instead, at some point one could or should or will specialize, and while going from, say, 6000 to 7000 characters generally might not give much as measured over the whole language, the addition of 1000 *topic-specific* characters in a field of interest might do wonders, more so for "hard" things like math. And here's why I bring it up here: The case is again good for choosing to acquire this specialized vocabulary from real textbooks, and one could begin this specialization at any time, since I presume that the child's textbooks in his other subjects are keyed reasonably to his ability to read them *at that level*. (This is certainly true for the first grade math books I have.) Thus the utility of being in gear with the educational establishment.

[tooironic]

Instead, at some point one could or should or will specialize, and while going from, say, 6000 to 7000 characters generally might not give much as measured over the whole language, the addition of 1000 *topic-specific* characters in a field of interest might do wonders... for choosing to acquire this specialized vocabulary from real textbooks

If you're talking about language learning textbooks, I think they are the last place one should learn vocab unless you are an absolute beginner. (If you are talking about technical texts then naturally that is a whole different ball game.)

Ultimately, the authenticity of texts (as well as one's own personal interest) should be the most important consideration. Texts written for pedagogical purposes should be avoided as they tend to "sanitise" language and thus do not give an accurate reflection of how language is actually used in real life. Although, again, if you're an absolute beginner I can see how that wouldn't matter so much.

Okay, I can see now perhaps I've strayed a bit from the OT... erm, whatever it was...

[abcdefg]

Instead, at some point one could or should or will specialize,

I eventually hope to teach Medical English in China after retiring from active clinical practice in the US. I've spent well over twenty years learning the English half of the necessary "specialized vocabulary" and I like to teach.

Edited December 15, 2009 at 02:48 AM by abcdefg

[querido]

That's beautiful abcdefg. Good luck.

[Meng Lelan]

What would the students plan to be doing with medical English?

[wushijiao]

What would the students plan to be doing with medical English?

I can't say for sure, but there are hospitals in China that cater to foreigners. These hospitals need nurses and doctors (or translators) who understand some technical medical English.

In any case, thanks for sharing your experiences abcdefg!