How do you use Grammar Books?

[HedgePig]

I have a few Chinese Grammar Brooks - Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar by Claudia Ross and some of the books Yip Po-Ching and Don Rimmington. I certainly haven't read any of them from cover to cover or even close but I do enjoy browsing through them very much. I keep finding things that make me think, "Ahhh. Very interesting indeed. I must not forget that." And then I promptly do.

So I'm curious as to how you use grammar books and even more curious to know how you get the knowledge to stick?

[anonymoose]

Well, I'm not sure which of the Yip Po-Ching and Don Rimmington you have, but if you have the Grammar and Workbook books, then I suggest you do the exercises. You will never get stuff to stick just by reading it. You have to put it into practise somehow. Write out your own sentences. Get a native speaker to check them. When you have the grammar under your belt, then try to incorporate it into your conversations.

[jbradfor]

I have one Chinese Grammar Brook - Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar by Claudia Ross. I certainly haven't read it from cover to cover or even close but I do enjoy browsing through it. I keep finding things that make me think, "Ahhh. Very interesting indeed. I must not forget that." or "Oh crap, I've been doing this wrong all these years. I must not do that again." And then I promptly do.

At least, that's what I do

[taylor04]

I read them, then use them

[chrix]

I'd suggest the following:

first of all, don't rely just on one grammar book.

Now as for how to use a grammar book:

Use it both as a reference (i.e. looking it up whenever you read something and come across some grammatical phenomenon) and like a textbook (i.e. try to read it chapter by chapter).

Whenever you read the explanation of some grammatical phenomenon, read it as many times as you need to understand what they're talking about. Also make sure you understand the examples they give and the point they're making with each example. Now when you read something, try to look for that phenomenon in the text, to understand how it occurs in context.

[Glenn]

I'd add, though, that (in my experience at least) trying to force something into your head or trying to force understanding is probably counterproductive. At least it leads to frustration and a lack of willingness to continue dealing with the language. I'll read something, but if it doesn't feel like it's coming together for me I tend to just forget about it for a while, and then come back to it later (like, months later sometimes). Some things just aren't within reach when I want them to be, and recognizing that and moving on helps keep me in a good mood. I'll understand it when my brain is ready to understand it, and just having read through it in the first place at least gets that process started.

[wushijiao]

Besides what anonymoose said (incorporating new grammar into your active abilities) I'd also suggest trying to do massive amounts of input per day, and while doing that, actively try to "note" certain grammar points while doing the input. In other words, grammar books are best understood when they are used in tandem with a lot of usage. That way, when you read a rule, you kind of say to yourself, "oh yeah, I think I kind of noticed that", rather than the rule seeming like ridiculous jargon (as Glenn said, I don't think it's always productive to try to cram things in. See a review of some of Krashen's theories below, where he would specifically argue that memorizing grammar is ineffective).

http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_learn_english_and/2008/12/stephen-krashen-and-language-acquisition.html

Another thing you can do, rather than trying to remember a rule, try to memorize/internalize a good model usage (sentence or phrase) of a grammar principle. For example, you can try to memorize certain sentences from your book (like an actor would). Then you can do substitution drills with that sentence. Speaking is probably the best method for that. But you can also take model sentence, put them in pinyin in, say, in a Word document, and then print it out and practice writing those characters below the pinyin. By doing that a few times, you also might be able to memorize the model sentence.

[HedgePig]

Thanks for the suggestions folks - all very helpful (taylor excepted!)

I do agree that I need to make the connection between what I read in a textbooks and what I come across elsewhere. (There's no danger of me trying forcibly to learn the grammar rules - I'm very good on that point.). I think some of the problem I have is that I'm studying at a very slow pace, so even if I read about something, by the time I come across it outside a textbook, I've forgotten that I ever read about it.

Anyhow, you all (taylor excepted again) have given me some good suggestions and ideas. Much appreciated.

Regards

HedgePig

[abcdefg]

How do you use Grammar Books?

Use them as a doorstop or use them to throw at the misbehaving cat. Most useless damned things on the face of the planet!

Let a little grammar seep in as you go along, reading and writing and talking a lot. Context is key.

Your grammar will probably never be very good, so don't worry about it and don't let fear of bad grammar get in the way of using the language as often as you possibly can.

Just dry reading a grammar book is about as much fun as a hemmorrhoidectomy.

[renzhe]

Your grammar will probably never be very good

why?

[anonymoose]

Just dry reading a grammar book is about as much fun as a hemmorrhoidectomy.

The crucial point isn't whether it is fun or not, but rather that after you have been suffering for a long time with bad grammar or painful haemorrhoids, you will feel very relieved afterwards when you've taken steps to address the problem.

[abcdefg]

Your grammar will probably never be very good

why?

It would have been more accurate to say "*My* grammar will probably never be very good."

The crucial point isn't whether it is fun or not, but rather that after you have been suffering for a long time with bad grammar or painful haemorrhoids, you will feel very relieved afterwards when you've taken steps to address the problem.

Maybe you are right. It just always winds up at the very bottom of my language-learning priority list, way below tones and vocabulary. Deep down I realize that better grammar might improve my understandability in daily speech and writing.

[taylor04]

all very helpful (taylor excepted!)

That brought a smile to my face. Although I'm 100% serious. That's all I do. I'll learn a new grammar point and make a mental note of it and use it that very day, even if I have to create the situation to use it in. I find the best way to get a new word or grammar point to stick is by going out and using it, and if I'm unsure I'll even ask if I used it correctly. I guess my one-liner comment seemed like I was being smart...

[abcdefg]

I'll learn a new grammar point and make a mental note of it and use it that very day, even if I have to create the situation to use it in. I find the best way to get a new word or grammar point to stick is by going out and using it, and if I'm unsure I'll even ask if I used it correctly.

Actually, that's what I do too.

[HedgePig]

I find the best way to get a new word or grammar point to stick is by going out and using it, and if I'm unsure I'll even ask if I used it correctly.

taylor, glad you weren't too offended :-) I guess that's part of my "problem" in getting things to stick is that I'm not actively trying to implement what I've read.When I'm trying to speak, the grammar simply doesn't enter my mind - I'm too busy trying to remember the words and the tones. (Of course my excuse for forgetting the words and not pronouncing the tones correctly is that I'm too busy trying to remember the grammar.)

[Glenn]

How often and how much are you listening or at least hearing the language? That should help with the tones and pronunciation, as well as help new words and grammar stick, I would imagine.

[leosmith]

There's some pretty good advice here, things like memorizing example sentences, putting new points into use immediately, continuing activity in other aspects of the language, etc. So I'll add one more suggestion (we've discussed previously) that my Thai teacher explained to me. Essay writing.

It doesn't have to be an essay exactly, it can be a letter, a short story, etc. It should be a topic of interest, and must be corrected by a native speaker when you're finished. Take your time writing your first essay, use all the resources available to you, except for native speakers. This is a very low pressure way to actually do some production that is correct. Don't dance around to avoid difficult grammar like I do when I first start speaking. Dig into your books and figure out the right way to say it. Get your essay as close to perfect as you can. Turn it in, get your corrections, and understand your mistakes. Write your second essay, your third, etc. You will soon memorize where to look in your references for the grammar you need. Not long after that, you will memorize the points themselves (this is the time at which it pays off to have sample sentences memorized - they are great reminders). Finally you will not need your references at all.

Just a reminder - during this essay process, you should continue your regular conversation practice. There will probably be a lag between your first perfect essay and perfect grammar in speech. It is probably best to continue writing good essays until the grammar has worked it's way into you speech. As other posters have mentioned, due diligence is a good idea.

Essay writing has been a core exercise in classroom language learning forever. When I was doing them in my native tongue the main purpose seemed to be to evaluate the students' progress, allowing the teacher to flog us. As I mentioned, it wasn't until I took some private lessons in Thai that I learned what at least some teachers know about essay writing, but don't seem to want to share with the world. As a self-studier, it's a step that's tempting to avoid. But I encourage learners to consider the advantages of this exercise.

Some further comments on getting used to grammar that I've already been exposed to. I'm a native english speaker. When I was taking a certification course in ESL, I was required to tell students not only what they where saying wrong, but why it was wrong. I've never been much of a grammar buff, and this task seemed impossible. But after actually doing the work of looking things up, things started clicking. It wasn't long before I knew where to look in my reference books. Shortly after that, I had the reasons memorized. Finally, I could give straight forward examples of corrections for all the errors that were being made. Some key points. First, this was figuring out grammar in my native tongue, so it's not necessarily applicable. Second, I had been exposed to tons of correct usage, and learned all the rules at some time in my past. Third, coming at grammar from the standpoint of just needing to solve a very specific problem, or figuring out the right way of saying something, and having all the time in the world to isolate and research it, seemed to be the trick that turned on all the necessary connections in my brain to finally allow me to wrap my mind around it. And on that third point, I'm comparing the stated standpoint to: learning grammar from a source, and then needing to "think on my feet" and put all my collective knowledge to work in the form of conversation.

So if you can ignore the first point, and accept having learned the grammar once as a substitute for the second point, then my theory is that essay writing is a mechanism which works like the third point, and will in fact be the most powerful tool in actually acquiring good grammar for a lot of people.

[Caidanbi]

The best way to remember the new grammar rules is to use them a lot! Read the example sentences, and then make up your own. Write them down, say them out loud, look for examples of the particular thing you are learning in books, magazines, tv shows, etc.

I also agree that writing letters or short stories is wonderful practice! I used to keep a diary in Chinese, I'm thinking of doing it again. It was a wonderful, low-stress way to practice, and it really helped me a lot ^-^

[Glenn]

And a good place to do that might be lang-8 (although mostly it's just native speakers, not ones who have studied their own languages).

[leosmith]

Excellent suggestion Glenn. I never knew such a place existed.