First episode 72: 红楼梦 A dream of red mansions

[rob07]

A part of the Grand First Episode Project -- See this thread for more info.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the book on which this series is based is the greatest story ever told. I think there is a new version about to come out but the 1987 adaption is also regarded as being one of the all time great Chinese TV series, even by 80/90后代, who normally don't believe anything good could have happened before they were born.

The series tells the story about life in the 贾 family, a large and aristocratic Chinese family (and business!). It is somewhat similar to 巴金's 家, but it is about a billion times better. 家 was pretty much just from the perspective of the privileged young generation, but 红楼梦 includes a much broader range of perspectives. It reminds me quite a bit of the office politics in a large business today. For example, the family employs an extremely large number of young girls as maids. Most will not stay in the family long-term, but will be married off by the family once they reach marriageable age. Having the 贾 name on their CV, they generally will be able to get much better husbands than they would otherwise have gotten. However, for a few of the maids, there will be an opportunity to become concubines to the men of the family and hence become quasi-aristocrats themselves. Competition for these openings is brutal. It reminded me of the "up or out" leverage models run by businesses today, particularly in professional services.

The first episode recounts how the female lead 林黛玉, the granddaughter of the ruling matriach of the 贾 family comes to live with her grandmother.

Tudou link: http://so.tudou.com/isearch/%E7%BA%A2%E6%A5%BC%E6%A2%A6%2001/

Unfortunately there is one big problem with this series - no subtitles (apart from for the poems). There are a couple of subtitled versions of the first episode (those posted by lichuansong2, 阿成娱乐视频 and pinkfloower) but I haven't found any subtitled versions of later episodes, so the first epsiode may be as far as I will get. If anyone knows of subtitled versions of later episodes available online, could they let me know?

[missbrokensmile]

It's really hard to find subtitles for this sort of drama, especially since it's an historical one with Classical Chinese. There has been a huge increase in the number of subtitled Chinese dramas, but it's mostly for the more modern and wuxia dramas, which is annoying, because the quality of the recent Chinese dramas have been amazing.

If I did watch this drama, I could probably only understand 50% considering the older language they're using *sigh*

But if you do find a subtitled version, be sure to post it here! I'll keep a look out as well

[atitarev]

I just saw 红楼梦 (1987) subtitles on shooter.cn

[rob07]

I just saw 红楼梦 (1987) subtitles on shooter.cn

Thanks atitarev. I have downloaded the subtitles and unRARed them into an .ssa file. I understand that it is possible to get the subtitles to play over video downloaded from verycd? I don't normally download video, but I have downloaded the second episode and something called DivX player to play it. Any chance you can explain to me how to get the subtitles to play over it? If you can do that, you'll be like my parents reborn, and I'll gladly serve as an ox in my next life in order to repay you!

[renzhe]

Try using VLC, it can play most subtitle formats, and can do everything DivX player can do. In general, it's a good player for everything. Free and open source too.

[atitarev]

I watch a bit yesterday. What I like about the series - they speak slowly and clearly, so you can follow exactly what they say.

Trying to download now - a few episodes at a time but it's very big. Got the subtitles as well. Seems like a good method to learn Chinese.

[rob07]

Try using VLC, it can play most subtitle formats

VLC shows the subtitles! Captain, if you anticipate needing the services of an ox in your next reincarnation, please let me know.

One further question though - the VLC picture looks as if it is broken into a million different tiny squares (whether I turn the substitles on or off). I don't have this problem with DivX. Any idea how I can fix this?

Seems like a good method to learn Chinese.

加油 atitarev! This is one series you won't regret watching.

Some puns in the first episode:

甄士隐 (name of the father of the little girl) = 真事隐 (true facts concealed).

贾雨村 (guy helped by 甄士隐, takes 林黛玉 to the capital) = 假语村 (fiction in rustic language).

I love the way that pinyin based input methods will autocomplete the names of the main characters of this novel.

[rob07]

I think there is a new version about to come out

Some major drama here. Back in 2007 a group of producers decided to do a remake of 红楼梦, and hired a famous director, 胡玫, to direct it. They planned to cast the main characters by holding a reality TV show in which various pretty young things would compete on TV for the right to star in the new series.

There then followed a long drawn out argument in the press in which 胡玫 claimed that she would not be obliged to cast the winners of the reality TV show in the roles which they had won, but could cast whoever she wanted. This went back and forth for a while but eventually 胡玫 was sacked in October 2008 and 李少红 hired to replace her using the reality show winners.

Everyone involved then got together on set. However, in January 2008 李旭丹, the girl who had won the right to play the female lead 林黛玉 in the reality show then abruptly left in the middle of the night. It was announced that 姚笛, the girl who had originally won the right to play 薛宝钗 (the other female point in the main love triangle) in the reality show would replace her and play 林黛玉.

Things went on like this for a while, but then in June 2008 there was a new press conference in which 姚笛 announced that she would be playing not 林黛玉, not 薛宝钗, but a third character, 王熙凤. Someone completely different would be playing 林黛玉.

Trailers for this new remake are now available online. I saw one site with a poll asking people to rate the trailer from one star to five stars. Nearly 40% gave it the maximum possible rating, however 50% gave it the lowest possible rating. I didn't like it myself, so I haven't posted it.

[renzhe]

One further question though - the VLC picture looks as if it is broken into a million different tiny squares (whether I turn the substitles on or off). I don't have this problem with DivX. Any idea how I can fix this?

Sounds like a scaling artifact (the video is encoded in a much lower resolution than you're showing).

Look under options and turn all the high-quality options to the max, especially anything relating to postprocessing and scaling and filtering.

[atitarev]

加油 atitarev! This is one series you won't regret watching.

Thanks for the encouragement! I am quite busy now but I will get to it.

One further question though - the VLC picture looks as if it is broken into a million different tiny squares (whether I turn the substitles on or off). I don't have this problem with DivX. Any idea how I can fix this?

Are you talking about subtitles? Here's my fix, which usually works.

I open the files in Wenlin. It will ask you for the encoding. These files are in GB.

Then I do "save as" and change the encoding to Unicode (recommended - top choice in Wenlin). This encoding is understood by most players. I always save files in Unicode - the most useful encoding. I don't know why there are still files and web pages in other encodings.

If you don't have Wenlin, you can do the same trick with MS Word. Let me know if you get stuck.

--

You can use other players too. RealPlayer and Windows Media Player will want that the media file and the subtitle file have the same name (excluding the extension). If the subtitles don't show - check the option for automatically showing subtitles (in preferences or options).

[rob07]

This show certainly doesn't pull any punches in dealing with the most extreme material. Just finished watching episode 5 and I strongly suspect it would be illegal to show it on free to air television, in any timeslot, in any developed Western country. Certainly I have never seen anything remotely that extreme on TV myself. And it was on prime time TV in China in the eighties! I guess it gets away with it because the book is a "classic" and was a favourite of Chairman Mao.

However, the 秦可卿 storyline is not explicit in the book. Scholars are pretty sure it was censored by the author's family as it was based on the actual experience of a relative. The TV show, on the other hand, puts it right out there.

[Outofin]

秦可卿 showed naked shoulder in that scene. Other than that, I don't remember anything visually extreme. It's been too long.

Do you mean the content of adultery is extreme?

[skylee]

I am SO curious, what happens to 秦可卿 on TV???

[rob07]

I am SO curious, what happens to 秦可卿 on TV???

In the book, it was strongly suggested that 秦可卿 took 宝玉's virginity when he was about 12 or 13. I don't think this was suggested by the TV show, in fact you don't even see 宝玉's journey to 太虚幻境 where 秦可卿 is criticised in the registers and songs for 擅风情, so she comes across as more of an innocent in the TV show. Having said that, as in the book, you do see 宝玉 becoming absorbed in the suggestive pictures in her bedroom and 宝玉 does cough up blood when she dies.

Anyway, in the book there are rumours that 秦可卿 and 贾珍 爬灰 (I can't believe Chinese actually has a word for a sexual relationship between a man and his son's wife, it may be the dirtiest word I know in any language) but it is never confirmed and 秦可卿 dies of natural causes in bed.

In the key scene in the TV show you see 贾珍 pushing 秦可卿 (his son's wife!) down and beginning to take her clothes off when he hears a noise and realises that someone is watching him through the window. 贾珍 goes out and sees it is one of 秦可卿's maids. He couldn't care less about being seen so he just goes back inside. The camera stays on the maid staring blankly at the door and you hear the sound of heavy breathing as 贾珍 starts to have sex with 秦可卿 inside. It is not completely clear how consensual this is, but it does feel a bit like rape, whereas I felt in the book the indications were that any affair would have been consensual.

As Outofin says, it is not visually extreme but it definitely feels like a very dirty and degenerate scene.

In the book, it is hinted but not stated that 贾珍's wife knows about the 爬灰, but in the TV show they show her finding out in long-drawn out detail.

The 秦可卿 death scene involves 秦可卿 getting up in the middle of the night and heading the room where 贾珍 had sex with her. Then the camera pans around various objects on the edges of the room without showing what 秦可卿 is doing. Then you see 秦可卿 telling 王熙凤 in a dream that she is dying. You don't actually see her kill herself, but it is made absolutely clear that she did not die peacefully in bed of illness. It seems quite clear that 秦可卿 is not really sick at all in the TV show, although it appears that way to those not in the know, she is really just suffering from extreme mental trauma as a result of her relationship with 贾珍.

In the book after 秦可卿 dies, one of her maids kills herself and another of her maids takes the role of chief mourner at her funeral. There is nothing more about these maids in the book, but in the TV show they are developed into quite major characters; one is the maid who witnessed 贾珍 having sex with 秦可卿 and the other is the maid who unwittingly lets 贾珍's wife know about it.

As in the book, there are no consequences for 贾珍 of the two deaths. He does feel very upset, but this seems to be more because he enjoyed having sex with 秦可卿 rather than guilt.

As in the book, at the same time as the 秦可卿/贾珍 storyline is playing out, you also see 贾蓉, 秦可卿's husband and 贾珍's son, participating in the murder or manslaughter of another man (贾瑞) over another sex-related incident.

It is rare to Western TV to deal with incest. Where Western TV does deal with incest it is always made clear that it is wrong, the abuser is evil and will inevitably be published. I do not think it would be possible to show on TV in most Western countries a storyline where the victim and an onlooker commit suicide and there are no consequences for the abuser.

[rob07]

I finished this a few days ago. I hadn't been aware of this, but this series does not follow the 高鹗 ending.

That is, the 红楼梦 novel was written by 曹雪芹, but he died before it was completed. The version of the novel in general circulation today has 120 chapters, the first 80 written by 曹雪芹 and the last 40 by 高鹗 an unrelated author and publisher. I think 高鹗 claimed to have found 曹雪芹 notes and draft, and to have written the last 40 chapters based on that. The extent to which 高鹗's ending reflected 曹雪芹 intentions for the novel is the subject of considerable controversy. Certainly, I understand that there is a body of academic thought that is very sharply critical of 高鹗's 40 chapters, and they have shown by reference to 曹雪芹's letters and other sources that there are several things that 高鹗 probably got wrong. However, the 高鹗 ending seems to have nevertheless established itself as "the" ending; if you went into a random bookstore and bought a copy of 红楼梦, it almost certainly would end with 高鹗's 40 chapters.

However, the ending of the 红楼梦 TV series is completely different to the 高鹗 ending. Several years ago, I read a list of things where there seemed to be some kind of academic consensus that 高鹗 had got wrong, and as far as I can remember all of these issues were "fixed" in the TV series ending. So I suspect that there is some pretty solid scholarship behind the script. Not surprising really, as the series overall is excellently done, just about all of the characters are spot on. The music is also excellent. I never liked the 枉凝眉 poem as much as the companion 终身误 poem, but the song version of 枉凝眉 in the TV series is really doing it for me. I see it was posted in the Song of the Day thread a while back.

[skylee]

I like both 枉凝眉 and 終身誤.

[Rysiek]

It is rare to Western TV to deal with incest. Where Western TV does deal with incest it is always made clear that it is wrong, the abuser is evil and will inevitably be published. I do not think it would be possible to show on TV in most Western countries a storyline where the victim and an onlooker commit suicide and there are no consequences for the abuser.

While I agree that Western TV always portrays incest as evil and the perpetrator is always punished, I disagree that there are "no consequences" for 賈珍. I am no 紅樓夢, but the moral decadence of 賈珍, and of the 寧國 side of the family in general, is stressed again and again throughout the book. If one takes the rosy ending as just that, a rosy ending that was grafted onto the story to make it more appealing to the public, the consequences of 賈珍's actions, both in relation to 秦可卿 and in general, certainly have serious negative consequences for him and the entire 賈 family.

Edit: 家珍 -> 賈珍; Thanks, skylee, didn't even notice.

Edited May 9, 2010 at 06:43 PM by Rysiek

[skylee]

家珍

It's 賈珍. It took me about half a minute to figure out who/what 家珍 was.

[rob07]

I disagree that there are "no consequences" for 贾珍.

Ultimately things don't work out that well, and the immoral behaviour of the 宁国 side of the family is certainly part of this. But when they go down, 秦可卿 is several years dead and, for example, the 尤二姐 litigation and death, the 薛蟠 trial and other family scandals, 贾政 getting mixed up in corruption, 王熙凤's illegal usury, the 宝玉/蒋玉菡 scandal (this is heavily stressed in the TV show, much more than I remember it being stressed in the book) are all much more recent events. So the 秦可卿/贾珍 story is part of the background to the fall but there isn't really a direct causal relationship. And it is not like 贾珍 is singled out for disaster; guilty and innocent are all pretty much in the same boat when the axe falls.

If one takes the rosy ending as just that, a rosy ending that was grafted onto the story to make it more appealing to the public,

The TV series doesn't have the rosy ending in the book, it is pretty grim. My understanding is that the most important reason the book has a rosy ending is not to make it more appealing to the public, but because anything else would have been interpreted as implicit criticism of the emperor, and anyone distributing the book would have got into serious trouble.

[Rysiek]

So the 秦可卿/贾珍 story is part of the background to the fall but there isn't really a direct causal relationship. And it is not like 贾珍 is singled out for disaster; guilty and innocent are all pretty much in the same boat when the axe falls.

You have a point. Nowadays any Western show would definitely place much more emphasis on directly punishing the abuser. It seem, however, as if the consequences to the family would be seen in a more direct way in Qing China, since ultimately any actions of 賈珍 or 王熙鳳 would reflect on the decadence of the 賈 family as much as on their own characters. The guilty and the innocent are lumped together for the punishment because they are all "guilty" of being 賈.

The TV series doesn't have the rosy ending in the book, it is pretty grim. My understanding is that the most important reason the book has a rosy ending is not to make it more appealing to the public, but because anything else would have been interpreted as implicit criticism of the emperor, and anyone distributing the book would have got into serious trouble.

Hmm, that's also a good point, especially since the book's rosy ending was a direct consequence of the Emperor's merciful and forgiving nature. Thanks for pointing that out.