Homework Help: Find The Errors In The Given Sentences

[Yezze]

So for homework i have to find the mistakes in a bunch of sentences. There are two that i can't figure out. Would anyone mind showing me what the mistake is and how to correct it?

Ex- 1.妈妈不让我周末睡懒觉，我很不了解。 Correction: 了解(liao jie) should be 理解(li jie). That's what i got.

These are the two i can't figure out:

14.老师说我们明天不上课，可我认为是今天。

15.妈妈睡觉睡得很晚，12点就睡了。

14. lǎo shī shuō wǒ men mínɡ tiān bú shànɡ kè ,kě wǒ rèn wéi shì jīntiān .

15. mā mɑ shuì jiào shuì dé hěn wǎn ， 12 diǎn jiù shuì le 。

For number 14 i have an one idea... 不上课(bu shang ke) might be 没有课(mei you ke). But i don't think 没有 should be used in that way. Other than that, i can't find something i think might be wrong.

For number 15, i don't really have an idea as to what is wrong.

Help would be greatly appreciated, but if you don't want to directly tell me (since it is my homework), hints/tips would be nice.

Thanks!

[roddy]

Both mistakes are after the commas.

[anonymoose]

Technically, I think sentence 14 is OK, depending on your interpretation. It could mean, "The teacher says we don't have class tomorrow, but I think it's today (the class being talked about hasn't happened yet, and I have a difference of opinion with the teacher)". However, I suspect the required answer is

14.老师说我们明天不上课，可我以为是今天。 The teacher says we don't have a class tomorrow, but I thought it was today (so I was mistaken).

就 is used to signify "as early as" or "sooner than expected". So the sentence as it stands is a bit contradictory. It would be translated as something like "Mother went to sleep very late; at 12 she was (already) asleep."

In this context, 才 has the opposite meaning of 就, that is "as late as" or "later than expected".

15.妈妈睡觉睡得很晚，12点才睡了。 Mother went to sleep very late; not until 12 did she go to sleep.

[stonelee]

15.妈妈睡觉睡得很晚，12点才睡了。 Mother went to sleep very late; not until 12 did she go to sleep.

Correction: "12点才睡了"should be"12点才睡".

了here is superfluous.

15.妈妈睡觉睡得很晚，12点才睡。

[roddy]

Superfluous, or wrong?

[anonymoose]

I didn't even think about that, but a quick Google search seems to suggest 了 is not infrequently used in this kind of sentence.

[Chinadoog]

In that type of sentence, 了 is used with 就 but not with 才.

我们本来约好上午十一点见面，可是他九点就来了

我们本来约好上午九点见面，可是他十一点半才来(If you put 了 at the end of this sentence it would be incorrect)

[creamyhorror]

Superfluous, or wrong?

Feels wrong to me...there's something conflicting between the implications/connotations of le4 and cai2, but I can't say what. Might be acceptable in certain places, I dunno.

[yishuikeqian]

wrong, 了means something have been done, 就 has a meaning of something has been done "so early"

Superfluous, or wrong?

[Yezze]

Well i had my class today (online, extra class, so we only meet once a week for an hour) and another student asked about 14. Our teacher told us that she was looking for us change 认为 to 以为, which ends up making sense after she review the difference for us. The change from jiu to cai on number 15 also makes sense.

Thanks for the help!

[Altair]

For those of us Chinese learners trying to master the use of 了, especially in such contexts as sentences using 才, I offer the two sentences below that contrast two different cases: one with 了 after the final verb （回） and one without. The sentences are from page 118 of Aspect In Mandarin Chinese: A Corpus-based Study by Richard Xiao and Tony McEnery, which is an excellent linguistic treatment of aspect in Mandarin. These sentences are written in pinyin without tone marks, so the choice of characters is mine, but hopefully still correct.

他昨天下（了）班去看了电影，八点钟才回到了家里。

Yesterday, he went to the cinema after work. It was already 8 when he got home.

他作天下（了）班去看了电影才回家。

Yesterday, he went to the cinema after work before he went home.

The book explains the presence of 了 in the first case as being because the reference time is a point in time (i.e., 8:00); whereas the reference time in the second is an interval (i.e., any time "yesterday" between seeing the movie and midnight). I also wonder if there is not a subtle difference in the meaning of 回（到）家（里）between the two sertences. In the first sentence, the time referenced is the arrival at home. In the second, the time referenced is either the departure for home or the entire activity of "going home." To bring out the contrast in the Chinese, it might be better to translate the first sentence as: "Yesterday, he went to the cinema after work, and it wasn't until 8 that he had gotten home" and the second sentence as: "He didn't go home yesterday until he had left work and gone to the cinema."

Another way to understand the contrast might by as follows. The activity of 回（到）家（里）refers to a bunch of different points in time. In the second sentence, all of these points occur after 看了电影 and so no aspectual clarification is needed and no 了 is used. In the first sentence, only some of the activity of 回（到）家（里）occurs after 8:00 and so 了 is necessary to show what part of 回（到）家（里）is being referred to.

[stonelee]

Superfluous, or wrong?

OH~~I mean,了is wrong here.

I thought “superfluous” means 多余的(should be removed).

However,seems it means “can leave or remove”？

[anonymoose]

Thanks for that post, Altair, it's very interesting.

Unfortunately though it doesn't really clear up the issue (in my mind at least) with the sentence provided initially. Whilst several (native speakers?) have come on here and said 了 is incorrect in that sentence (when 就 is replaced with 才), the Google search results I provided show many examples where 了 is used with 才. Now I know not everything on the net is correct, and even native speakers of Chinese can make mistakes in their own language, so perhaps those Google results are just examples of erroneous use of 了, but this issue has actually been discussed on Cforums before, and consequently, I've consciously noted other occasions when 才 and 了 appear together in this kind of sentence.

Bases on the analysis provided in Altair's post, it seems that 了 could be used in the OP's sentence. So why has everyone (so far) unanimously said that the use of 了 is incorrect? :blink:

[creamyhorror]

I think there are a few issues here.

1) A definite time reference versus a indefinite/habitual/repeated reference.

2) Which sort of 了 we're using or implying.

他昨天八点钟才回到了家里。 (fine)

他昨天八点钟才回了家。 (fine)

他昨天八点钟才回家了。 (seems weird to me, I'd leave out 了)

他每天八点钟才回家了。 (seems wrong)

The sentence under consideration (妈妈睡觉睡得很晚，12点才睡了) could be interpreted to have either a definite or indefinite/repeated time reference. If it's taken as indefinite, it seems wrong, and if taken as definite, it seems weird.

Let's hear some native speaker input.

[valikor]

15. mā mɑ shuì jiào shuì dé hěn wǎn

"de" is only 2nd tone when meaning "obtain" (unless I'm horribly mistaken)

Maybe it was just a typo. If not, that would make you sound a bit strange when speaking

[Altair]

Bases on the analysis provided in Altair's post, it seems that 了 could be used in the OP's sentence. So why has everyone (so far) unanimously said that the use of 了 is incorrect? :blink:

I am not sure, but I think the 了 in the OP's sentence would still not be warranted. In my view, 了 always points toward the significance of some point in time and this does not seem to be appropriate in this case.

After 才, you usually want to name what occurred, but usually do not need to refer to any specific point in time of what occurred. If you say 才睡, you are saying that all points of 睡 occurred after the reference point (i.e., midnight). No particular point of what occurred needs to be emphasized. If you say 才睡了, you are trying to emphasize that there is some point in the sleeping process that only occurred after midnight; however, since 睡 is merely an activity with no special point, adding a 了 seems to be wrong. You might think that the beginning of the sleeping process is such a point; however, since 睡 describes what is called an activity, the beginning point cannot be referenced simply be adding a 了. 十点才睡 seems to mean: "the activity of sleeping did not occur until after midnight."

In 回到家, we are talking about what is often termed an "accomplishment," rather than an "activity." By definition, "accomplishments" describe an activity that culminates in a definite end point. If you say 才回到家, it is not clear whether the accomplishment has been achieved or whether it is still incomplete as of the reference point. To clarify that the person has not merely left for home, but has arrived at home, you refer to that point in time by adding 了 and saying 才回到了家里. 十点才回到了家里 seems to mean: "The point of arriving at home did not occur until midnight."

I think that 就睡了 represents a different use of 了. Here 了 does not refer to any particular point of the activity of sleeping, but rather to the beginning of a new state of affairs that begins earlier or more easily than expected. This is the sentence-final 了, which has a slightly different analysis than the verb-final 了 I have tried to discuss above.

[anonymoose]

I see what you're getting at.

So would you say that 了 is warranted in this sentence:

妈妈经常失眠，她昨晚12点钟才睡着了。

?

[Altair]

So would you say that 了 is warranted in this sentence:

妈妈经常失眠，她昨晚12点钟才睡着了。

?

I could be wrong, but I do not think the 了 is justified in this case. Here the emphasis is on saying that none of the process of falling asleep took place until midnight. The culmination of the process is not really the issue. You could again argue that 了 is "change of state," but I think that term can be quite misleading and again does not apply. Here we are describing the circumstances of when an action took place, not really describing how the situation ended up. Using my approach of seeing 了 as marking an end/beginning point, the questions is why is marking such a point important in this statement?

If you want to see a contrast between a 才 sentences with 了 and one without, try these two from nciku.com:

起先他反对，后来才同意了。

At first he was opposed to the idea, but later he came around.

商量了半天，末了他才同意。

After discussing it quite a while, he eventually agreed. (My translation)

I think 了 is okay in the first sentence, because the emphasis is on the beginning of a new state that continues indefinitely. In other, he continued to be in agreement with the idea. I think the second sentence has no 了 because the emphasis is on the action of agreeing. There is no implication about whether the person's agreement continued.