how to deal with language battles

[Meng Lelan]

the language you both used when you first met or used in the first stage of the relationship will stick

That's why I was asking rezaf. So now we see what rezaf said, that confirms your point...I notice that in my relationships with 99% of Chinese if we're speaking Chinese right from minute one we ever meet, it continues that way, but if they're pushing in the English right from minute one we ever meet, that's not going to change because they have millions of excuses to keep pushing in the English. Their most common excuse being your foreign face, well, that's already a lame excuse because the faces of Chinese speakers are becoming more and more diverse.

[rezaf]

I personally think that(excluding those Chinese people who honestly want to improve their English) it's because some Chinese people are 崇洋媚外(or 假洋鬼子 as they say) and some are more Chinese at heart. Like many other countries there are some people who want to get away from their culture and some who love their own culture and this will affect their choice of language.(I'm saying this because I am also a 假洋鬼子 towards my own culture so I know the type)

[ma3zi1]

For the record, I'm not a native English speaker. In fact, my spoken English is pretty terrible and barely understandable because of my heavy accent.

This is exactly the stereotyping I'm talking about. The assumption is that "white people speak English", and in many cases that is not true. This assumption boils down to bigotry and not much else, whether it is intentional or not.

[Meng Lelan]

I get this stereotyping too as a deaf person. I can be out somewhere and someone who happens to know sign language (commonly happens now that sign language is accepted as a foreign language credit in high schools and colleges)sees my hearing aids and start signing to me like they assume I can't speak or listen, and I kind of have to smirk through it because those people don't realize that isn't my normal and prefered mode of communication and in fact they would likely to have a cardiac if they found out what really is my normal and prefered mode of communication. So I can empathize with some of the forumers here who have a foreign face but English isn't their normal mode of communication.

[rezaf]

Generalization and stereotyping are very normal behaviors for all human beings but in Chinese culture it is perhaps more common than other cultures that I know of. As you see Chinese people actually like to stereotype themselves very much. For example 东北人 are all like this, 上海人 are all like that. Chinese people like to put labels on everyone and every thing(戴帽子）which might be bad in the eyes of some foreigners from the west who see this as racism or something like that but it's actually very pragmatic as by simplifying things they increase their speed in dealing with people. However in my experience as more and more foreigners come to China a lot of these stereotypes about foreigners are vanishing for example in Shanghai comparing to a few years ago people are getting less and less surprised when they see foreigners who can speak Chinese and they are starting to treat us as a normal part of the society here.

Edit: I think many Chinese actually like to be stereotyped. For example in TV shows like 非诚勿扰 there are many people who come and instead of saying what they want, just refer to their city and for example say "we 东北人 are 大男子主义" or" we somewhere人 are like this or like that". So stereotyping doesn't have a negative meaning in China.

[xiaocai]

Isn't it stereotypical to say that Chinese culture tends to stereotype more?

[abcdefg]

Negotiate it; work it out.

Although I'm not an English speaker and my rusty Chinese is better than my rusty English, I have been trying to negotiate it for 3 years with my wife with no success.

@rezaf -- Being divorced, I would never be so presumptuos as to try to tell a man how to negotiate with his wife. You are on your own there.

[rezaf]

@xiaocai 入鄉隨俗

[xiaocai]

I don't remember that we have this 俗. I don't know which 乡 you 入 but it's definitely not mine.

[rezaf]

I don't remember that we have this 俗.

Really? I think it's actually can be a good 俗 as simplification and categorizing can help pragmatism a lot. You should try it.

[xiaocai]

So it is really how YOU THINK after all. No thank, I'd prefer to stick to what I THINK, or WE THINK...

[anonymoose]

I don't know why people get so worked up about these things. It may be the case that more and more foreigners are able to speak Chinese, but even so, of all the foreigners in China, the proportion that speaks Chinese is still a small fraction. I have no statistics, but I'd guess of all white visitors to China, less than 1% can speak Chinese (more than just ordering a beer). On the other hand, of the white visitors to China, I'd guess that more than 90% are conversational in English (and I suspect even that is an underestimate, except maybe near the Russian border).

Therefore, it is logical that a Chinese person approaching a white foreigner for the first time would speak in English. For those foreigners who do speak Chinese, it may be irritating and an affront to one's Chinese-speaking vanity, but come on, calling it "bigotry" as a previous poster did is really making a mountain out of a molehill.

[rezaf]

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. I just mentioned that in the eyes of foreigners from some western countries stereotyping would directly imply a negative meaning like racism but in China categorizing things is common and doesn't necessarily imply something negative. Maybe an example would help you to understand my point. In China many people use the name of our category and call us 老外 instead of calling us by our names. In western countries calling somebody a "foreigner" directly wouldn't be so friendly but in China it doesn't imply anything negative.

I'd prefer to stick to what I THINK, or WE THINK..

Edit: @xiaocai Also keep in mind this is not a scientific forum and most of us can only express our own views and I didn't say that my views are scientific. You also can only stick to what you think not what you(plural) think (unless you want to stereotype ;) )

And if you have any doubts about how much Chinese people like to stereotype go to 百度 and just type something like 上海（or somewhere else)男人(or 女人）的特点。 and see for yourself how other Chinese think.

Edit 2:Have a look at post no.5 in This Don't you think that you are stereotyping Shanghainese men?

[xiaocai]

We simply means the Chinese people who I am familiar with here.

Sometimes I read about complains like "No one speaks English in China, it was so hard for me to get around". Some other times, I head people say that "Everyone just keeps speaking English to me in China and it was just impossible for me to practice my spoken Chinese". I am like, hello, so what are we supposed to do then? You chose to come to China, and this is how it is. Most of us are not born with linguistic talents and can not just satisfy everyone's needs to improve their language skills.

Rant over. Thanks to all of you for your patience.

[roddy]

@xiaocai Also keep in mind this is not a scientific forum

The forum is highly scientific. It's the members that are the problem

[rezaf]

I don't know why people get so worked up about these things. It may be the case that more and more foreigners are able to speak Chinese, but even so, of all the foreigners in China, the proportion that speaks Chinese is still a small fraction. I have no statistics, but I'd guess of all white visitors to China, less than 1% can speak Chinese (more than just ordering a beer). On the other hand, of the white visitors to China, I'd guess that more than 90% are conversational in English (and I suspect even that is an underestimate, except maybe near the Russian border).

Therefore, it is logical that a Chinese person approaching a white foreigner for the first time would speak in English. For those foreigners who do speak Chinese, it may be irritating and an affront to one's Chinese-speaking vanity, but come on, calling it "bigotry" as a previous poster did is really making a mountain out of a molehill.

Yes but in Shanghai where there are actually many foreigners who can speak Chinese this stereotype is slowly changing. I have noticed that there are more and more people who don't get surprised when I speak Chinese or even speak to me in Chinese assuming that I know the language when they meet me for the first time, whereas a few years ago it was only either English or not talking to me at all. People who have been here longer than I have must have noticed it better.

[Meng Lelan]

On the other hand, of the white visitors to China, I'd guess that more than 90% are conversational in English

Is this scientific?

[anonymoose]

My guesses are always scientific.

[grawrt]

I know its an old thread but I just had this experience recently and thought it was kind of funny (not really but how easy I was fooled).

While eating dinner by myself one day I was approached by a chinese girl. She seemed very sweet, she started with english but then when she noticed I could speak Chinese she reverted and we conversed a bit, she was amazed that I *a foreigner* could use chopsticks (why are so many chinese people surprised by this?) then then she noticed I was eating just veggies, and asked if I was vegetarian and told me about her roommates and a little bit about herself, we spoke back and forth for a bit then exchanged weixin numbers.

Later she asked if we could do a language exchange one day. I told her sure, since it seemed she respected the fact that I wanted to practice my Chinese. Also her major is teaching foreigners chinese so I thought great, that means if I make a mistake she'd be able to explain to me why. I thought it would be a good balance since my major was English and if someone makes a mistake I don't mind helping them with it and offering an explanation why. This was my first time making a language exchange partner so I wasn't sure how it usually goes, in my mind language exchange is kind of up in the air, mixing chiense and english. So we had dinner a new nights later.

It was one of the weirdest experiences I had in my life. She insisted on speaking English the whole time, and it was a total opposite from when we first met. Stubbornly I decided to keep with Chinese (for about five or ten minutes) but eventually she asks me, "Can we speak english for a little bit, then switch to Chinese?" I told her sure! Since we weren't going anywhere with the conversation. So I spoke with her a bit in English... and then a bit more. I started to notice where this was going eventually so I went back to Chinese but she never spoke a word in Chinese. After about 5 or 10 minutes after I switched back to Chinese, she looked at her watch and said Oh, its kind of late... we should go? I looked at the time and was amazed. In the two hours we had lunch she spoke not a single word of Chinese.

I left feeling a bit like crap and totally duped. But to be honest, now that i look back it was a good strategy for her. She not only got to practice her english as much as she wanted, but she even managed to get me to speak in English (willingly) by promising a return in Chinese (that ultimately never came).

Anybody else have this experience?

Just as a note, I think this was a good first experience for me because it taught me some lessons. 1) that I have to define time boundaries better/division of time 2) if the person agrees to a language exchange and decides never to speak the language, I should just stop letting them waste my time and go off on my way 3) Don't meet with people that seek you out in a lunch room. lol.

[hedwards]

Honestly, I was always skeptical of Chinese English teachers when I did come across them. Or at least the ones that weren't working at the same school. It's a relatively common basis for scams and so I got rather jaded at first. The key though is to start with the Chinese you want and then do the right thing at some point and switch to English.

 

As far as the topic goes, you can always get a custom shirt thate expresses that you speak Chinese and encourages people to say something. I've never had the guts for that personally, but I saw an article about that here: http://www.fluentin3months.com/tshirt/ and it seems like a good idea.

 

Personally, I rarely had the problem of people insisting upon English when I was away from school. I guess that's one of the benefits of working in a more rural environment. Most of the time I'd have to seek out English if that's what I wanted and in practice I wouldn't seek it out so I wouldn't find it. Every once in a while I'd meet people that were interested in English practice, but I don't think I ever encountered any that were unwilling to reciprocate. A lot of the time they were specifically wanting to know if I knew any Chinese and how much.