The most authentically "Chinese" place to study

[pancake]

I was actually with a program called CET, so I am not too familiar with how you would stay there. All that aside, Harbin is a really distinctive city that definitely does not attract as many foreigners. I agree with kdavis on this one, if you can handle the cold, Harbin is the place to be.

You don't have to spend $$$ on the expensive CET program to go to Harbin. If you don't feel comfortable getting started on your own, I can wholeheartedly recommend the services of this company. You will end up saving big over CET either way and, while I'm sure the normal language program isn't nearly as good as what CET offers, I also feel that the real learning happens outside of the classroom anyway. Or maybe I'm just jealous. ;)

EDIT: Seems the link didn't work for some reason. The company I referred to in my post is http://www.hyccchina.com

[zomis93]

Its me again.

Wushijiao, Jbradfor, Yang Rui, and xiaocai. Thanks for your opinion on what "authentic" means. When I typed authentic, I meant a place that was free or had very little western influences(aside from architecture). Not necessarily "Primitive". I meant a place where I wont see McDonald's on every street corner or a bunch of grown teenagers imitating LA's Gang scene, or rampant celebrity worship/imitation. A place where people are not hardwired to imitating the west. However, after giving some thought on it, you all have a point. How China manages to mix the east and west is a big part of China's culture nowadays. It is a part of the "Chinese Experience" and is what makes China so interesting.

After reading everything. I feel I want to study in a place that has a "good" balance between the traditional and modern. After doing some reading it seems that the coastal cities have had more western contact so they are more westernized. So they are a mix between the traditional and modern. While places a bit more inland like Sichuan don't have as much contact and are more traditional. Is this assumption wrong?

[zomis93]

After doing some reading, Harbin does seem like an interesting destination. According to Wikitavel,air quality goes down during the winter because of the coal used to heat the city. I don't like the idea of chocking under polluted air during the winter though while trying to not freeze. Reckless taxi drivers don't appeal to me ether. Lack of English speakers still does not appeal to me. However, it being a winter wonderland does sound fun. I live in California so seeing some snow fall sounds like an interesting change of environment. The snow festival sounds exciting. The idea of a city exploding to life during the mild summers is also a plus. I shall consider it....

[Brian US]

I live in California so seeing some snow fall sounds like an interesting change of environment.

Hope you are prepared for months of freezing temperatures. My Chinese teacher in the States came from Taiwan and wanted to go to school in Michigan so she could see snow. When we hit about -20F windchill and a few feet of snow, she said she felt stupid coming.

[wushijiao]

After reading everything. I feel I want to study in a place that has a "good" balance between the traditional and modern. After doing some reading it seems that the coastal cities have had more western contact so they are more westernized. So they are a mix between the traditional and modern. While places a bit more inland like Sichuan don't have as much contact and are more traditional. Is this assumption wrong?

I think this is generally correct. Places in the interior generally have less contact with the outside world.

One other point...people keep mentioning the issue of there being "other foreigners" in a certain place. I think there are two separate issues to consider: 1) to what extent will being around other foreigners influence you to not study Chinese, and simply waste time hanging out as you would back home?, and 2) how accustomed are local people to foreigners, and interacting with them? These are really two separate issues. In the first case, you'll need good discipline to avoid hanging around with other foreigners. Although Beijing and Shanghai have hundreds of thousands of expats and a big party scenes, you won't necessarily gain an advantage by going to a remote place. Even in a city like Zhengzhou in the early 2000's, which couldn't have had more than a hundreds or so expats, it was still possible (and indeed probable for some) to spend most of their time hanging around other people/drinking buddies. In a strange way, it can be easier to bond with other random foreigners when in a remote places when compared with more "modern" cities. So, moving to a place with few foreigners isn't a necessarily guarantee of success: a lot depends on your own study habits and who you choose to spend time with. The second issue, in my view, is more important: are local people used to foreigners? In remote places in which they are not, they will often be very curious about you, and will be willing to strike up conversations. Of course, in the long run, you might find that you discuss some of the same topics again and again. But from a beginner's point of view, that's a great thing! In places like Shanghai or Beijing, people tend to be less willing to simply chat with you randomly, because they see foreigners every day.

The problem with going to the middle of nowhere to study Chinese is that you risk ending up in a cultural black hole where nothing ever happens, people have backward attitudes, and you end up losing touch with a lot of the things that define you. I wonder if it's a useful analogy to think about where in the USA you would go to study English. Would you go to a small city in the Midwest because it's more authentically American, and try to avoid New York because it's too cosmopolitan and not real enough? Are you a hobby astronomer, programmer, or quilter? It will be difficult to find Chinese people who share your interests if you are in an isolated, authentically Chinese location. In the big city things are moving forward and new Chinese culture is being created; you can be not just a spectator but take part: join a fashion or artists community, volunteer for a charity organization, or get an internship at a local high-tech startup. Opportunities like these require a certain level of economic and cultural support that will be harder to find in Henan or Gansu.

This is a very good point. For a person like me, I think the greatest danger in going to a remote place would be the intellectual boredom. I used to spend every Spring Festival in Henan, and the conversations tended to be very simple and practical: what are the prices of houses, who's doing what?, what's the weather like today?, how much is this?, how much is that?, what's on sale?, what should we eat tonight? Generally speaking, these places suffer a pretty severe brain drain, and most of the talented/ambitious people have left for the coastal cities. At an intermediate or advanced stage of Chinese, it'd be fairly difficult to be in a remote place. However, at a beginner's stage, it can be ok. Also, I'd try to get to the point where you can read in Chinese ASAP, and then you can always go to local bookshops and read Chinese books. With that in mind, "tier 2" cities like Harbin, Chengdu, Xi'an, Qingdao, Nanjing, Kunming, and others can provide the best of both worlds. But even smaller cities can also be nice.

Many long-term expats follow a progression, of sorts, start in a remote place, move to a bigger coastal city, and finally end up in one of the mega-cities like Beijing or Shanghai. (And then take the final leap to Hong Kong!) To a large extent, this progression mirrors the job market, as many of the best jobs for expats in China are in these few places.

I know many people who spent time out in remote places, especially when they were young, and feel the time spent there was absolutely invaluable, but they wouldn't want to live there again. But then again, successful learners of Chinese often look at the path that they took (and the cities they chose) as the optimal places (as I myself have often done), when in reality, I think with a strong work ethic you can probably learn just about anywhere in Mainland China.

In any case, good luck with your decision!

[gato]

Lack of English speakers still does not appeal to me.

Maybe you should consider Hong Kong.

[zomis93]

Thanks for the warning Brian US. Six mouths + of snow sounds depressing.

Thanks for the thoughtful post Wushijiao. You have given me a lot to think about. I never considered the attitude of the locals when meeting a foreigner as a criteria. I am somewhat sure I will work better in an environment with English speakers who are willing to befriend me and help me I think.

Hong Kong is on mind since a previous poster said it preserved traditional Chinese culture pretty well while offering the conveniences of the west. It might not be a perfect place to learn mandarin but I shall consider it.

[skylee]

Hong Kong is on mind since a previous poster said it preserved traditional Chinese culture pretty well while offering the conveniences of the west. It might not be a perfect place to learn mandarin but I shall consider it.

Do take the cost implication into consideration.

[wushijiao]

Hong Kong is on mind since a previous poster said it preserved traditional Chinese culture pretty well while offering the conveniences of the west. It might not be a perfect place to learn mandarin but I shall consider it.

To be honest, zomis93, I wouldn't recommend Hong Kong as a place to learn Putonghua since:

1) People speak Cantonese here, and the Putonghua levels vary greatly

2) Most importantly, people almost always speak to you in English, assuming you are non-Asian looking (ie. black or white). Despite some HKers and expat employers' laments that English levels are declining, overall, many people are fairly proficient in English, especially basic transactional English, which cannot be said of almost anywhere else in the PRC.

3) Costs would be significantly greater than in the Mainland, as skylee mentioned.

With that said, Hong Kong is a great city in many other aspects. Overall, it's also probably the best place for foreigners who want to stay in China but have a decent career.

You could consider Shenzhen, which, I think, provides a great environment for learning Mandarin. (Although Shenzhen isn't "authentic", by almost any definition). Then you could always come to HK for cultural events, to shop, dine...etc.

But generally speaking, I think you'd be better off in some of the places previously mentioned.

[gato]

I suggested Hong Kong in jest Because I was amused that after all the discussion about finding the most authentically Chinese, the OP puts the lack of English speakers as a negative. I hope he doesn't have to idealistic of a picture of what China is like. (If the 93 in his ID is his birth date, then he might still be in high school and is justified in being a little too idealistic. Just have an open mind and be ready for some cultural shock.)

I remember from another thread that the OP is of Chinese descent (Hakka family background), so he shouldn't have to worry about everybody trying to speaking English with him.

[wushijiao]

I remember from another thread that the OP is of Chinese descent (Hakka family background),

I figured you were suggesting it in jest, Gato. But if the OP is of Asian decent, then the socio-linguistic dynamics of HK can make it a pretty good place to learn Cantonese, I think, but not Putonghua (or Hakka, or Shanghaihua, for that matter). But then again, anything can be done with the right motivation. Steve Kaufmann of linq learned Mandarin in HK, for example.

[zomis93]

I thought the user name Gato sounded familiar. Yeah, I suppose me counting lack of English speakers as an negative is ironic since I wanted an Authentic Chinese cultural experience. Am I expecting too much to want to go to a Chinese city that still has a connection with traditional Chinese culture while still housing a decent population of English speakers? I don't think I am too idealistic in my image on China. I am not expecting China to be like the romanticized descriptions Marco Polo made in his travels. I am expecting to see a future supper power that has the potential to completely change the power balance, transform into a one of kind society. Sure it will be dirty, cut up dog meat may haunt my dreams, and human rights laws are terribly abused over there but taking the good and the bad is apart of the experience that I hope to enjoy.

[anonymoose]

Have you thought about Xi'an? That seems to have most of what you are after.

[amandagmu]

Don't take these questions personally or in the wrong way, but I think you need to realize that some of your priorities are quite conflicting. For example, I don't think it's possible to find a place with "traditional Chinese" culture (although, I'm really not sure what exactly you mean by this since you also said you weren't interested in "old monuments"? do you mean the food?) that also has plenty of English speakers.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and please put me in my place if I'm 100% wrong. Most American high school students have never lived anywhere on their own prior to college, and for that matter very very few have traveled alone. I know this because I'm an American, went to high school there, but had moved around internationally as a kid and did the traveling bit alone quite a few times. When I went to college, I remember helping numerous classmates around foreign countries on my study abroad experiences. It was surprising to me how few people had been anywhere outside their state of residence, let alone outside the U.S. (and in most cases the Mexico and Canada, but sometimes Western Europe as well). I could be wrong, you could not fit this criteria at all, or maybe you had a few family vacations abroad etc. Nothing wrong with that. But it does explain why you are looking for a place with some English speakers to practice, and for that I don't blame you at all for. The clean air and temperate weather reminds me of the three years I lived on the Monterey Bay, so again I can't blame you for wanting clean air.

Now, here's what I suggest. #1, forget the idea of finding a place with lots of native English speakers, teaches standard Mandarin, has clean air, and doesn't have all those McDonald's you're concerned about (besides, just do what I do and avoid them!). #2 Get a place to help you choose the right place for you -- I used HYCC (as some other poster suggested) for my stay in Dalian because 1) it's not expensive 2) they don't deal with big, overpopulated, saturated markets like Beijing and Shanghai and 3) the guy who owns it is a native English speaker and will help you make the transition (that's why you pay for his service). My classmates (intermediate level) were not native English speakers, but came mostly from Korea, Japan, Russia, so they preferred we speak in bad Chinese with the occasional English word (this helps a lot!). I got lots of "authentically Chinese" experiences, like the Chinese guy who I met at an internet cafe on one of my first days who wanted to practice his English, then ate lunch with me, and then would not go away until I directly told him to go home. :-) Or the time a bunch of classmates and I went to a pole dancing club in Dalian where "authentically Chinese" businessmen frittered away their money on half-naked girls while drinking heavily. And then there's that time I went to the beach in Dalian... clear water, which I shared with what must have been half the population of the city camped out in their tents (so as to NOT tan) and the Russian tourists baking like lobsters directly adjacent. All while drinking a 50 cent liter of snow beer and eating grilled corn on the cob. Another "authentically Chinese" experience.

And finally, despite my terrible Chinese, I had a much better time in the Tier 2 city (Dalian) than in Beijing for reasons of which have been mentioned in this thread and in others ones I wrote about my experience (cleaner air, fewer people, more friendly, ETC).

Good luck!

[cui ruide]

Modern in China, frankly, is an unimaginable place for those who have not come here. "Identity crisis" does not do justice to what you encounter here, that is, to use a term most people will understand. I don't necessarily endorse the negativity of 'crisis.' I just rather let you pass your own judgment. In short, everything tastes post-communist, with notes of ancient tradition and modernization. The blend of these depends on the place.

I think it's hard to lump the few megacities (Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou...) into one category. Despite their size, they have very different western influences, very different economies, and very different histories. Beijing, for example, is a very traditional west meets east: it's filled with old Chinese architecture, temples, palaces, etc. The character of its people are still very Chinese. Shanghai, as a contrast, has a more western and cosmopolitan past which shows itself in its architecture and the local people as well. Msittig talks about the positives of living in one of the bigger cities. I think they're great to live in, but I'm happy I studied in a "second-tier". As a student, I think you'll be pretty occupied and not able to take advantage of all the stimulation.

So I would probably recommend finding a second-tier city. Here things all start to feel similar with a few exceptions. There are the stand-outs: Hangzhou, Nanjing, Qingdao, Xi'an, Chengdu, Kunming (3rd-tier? we'll count it), Harbin, Xiamen. These, while smaller, still will have the mark of western business. They also have something indigenous and noteworthy--history, environmental beauty, unique culture. For example: Xi'an is an ancient capital with a wall and has lots of silk road influenced food (yum). Hangzhou is another ancient capital, but has a beautiful lake at its center, extremely modern downtown, and a strong tea culture.

Beyond these, you are getting into something maybe a little too authentic. Other Chinese cities all sort of blend together outside of climate and food. People by and large will speak some dialect. The post-communist taste will still be strong. Development will seem more explosive, more "DIY," than planned and attractive. There will be a few temples, a few huge communist squares and statues. All Chinese cities are large in population, but these will feel small. You'll get a lot more questions about the outside and attention, but not necessarily in a good way. Some people can thrive in this environment, but I think others have already talked about the negative effects of this sort of stark removal from your natural habitat.

In short: China is a crazy place. Don't dive in; ease in. Wherever you pick, you should at least have classmates to get some support from. And yes, even you will probably enjoy a trip to McDonald's while you're here.

[zomis93]

As of right now I am sort of considering Dalian and Xi'an. An Island resort feel along with a modern city sounds nice. I have ruled out Harbin since its cold winters sound depressing. Is it really worth it? Hangzhou was something I considered because it looks nice but I have heard its rather boring compared to the other second tier cities. So much to choose.... Same thing with Shenzhen

I shall respond to other posts when I have time.

[anonymoose]

Dalian and Xi'an are very different from one another. As I mentioned in a previous post, in terms of traditional Chinese culture, Dalian is almost totally devoid of that. Xi'an, on the other hand, is practically at the other end of the spectrum in that respect. So, if historical cultural sites are of importance to you, then that is something to consider.

Also, it is worth pointing out that, whilst Dalian may not be as extremely cold as Harbin, it can still get very cold and windy, and the winter lasts for a long time. I spent over a year in Dalian, and I enjoyed most aspects of the city, but the winter is one major factor that would probably deter me from going back there for any length of time. Having said that, I suspect the winter in Xi'an could get pretty brutal.

Regarding Hangzhou, I don't know why you'd consider it boring. What is it that you would want a city to offer for it not to be boring? Apart from beaches, I'm not sure that Dalian has anything to offer that Hangzhou doesn't have. But Hangzhou definitely has a nicer natural environment than Dalian.

Anyway, whatever anyone writes here is just going to be personal opinion. Perhaps you should try searching for photos of these various places on the net, to give you a better idea of the atmosphere and environment of each place.

[gato]

I think by "authentically Chinese", the OP just meant "a place where I wont see McDonald's on every street corner or a bunch of grown teenagers imitating LA's Gang scene, or rampant celebrity worship/imitation." He's not looking for monuments and temples.

I'm guess that the OP is from southern California, where is is a phenomenon of Chinese-American kids acting like wanna-be gangsters. That should be easy to avoid in China. Don't worry too much about China being like LA.

[anonymoose]

Well if there being no McDonald's is the OP's main criterion for choosing a place, and presumably that would also include KFC as well then (of which there seem to be even more of in China, or at least Shanghai), I think that would rule out practically any city with a program for foreigners to learn Chinese. Out of all the towns and cities I have been to in China, which is quite a lot, the only one I can think of where I didn't see a single McD or KFC is Jinghong (ever heard of that?), and I doubt it would suit the OP's other requirements since there aren't many English speakers there, and I guess there aren't any chinese programs there either.

Maybe the OP should consider learning Vietnamese in Vietnam instead. The girls are similar, and there don't seem to be any western food outlets there at all.

[aristotle1990]

Go to one of the many small cities where you will not find a single other foreigner (such as 张家口 -- interesting place), find a tutor, and get studying. You will attract many curious Chinese people who don't speak a word of English, all your friends will be Chinese, and you'll basically own after a year or two.