Is this a correct "verb - 得 - adjective" structure?

[Master Rakoczi]

I came across this sentence:

你的中国话说得越来越好了

nǐ de zhōngguó huà shuō de yuè lái yuè hǎo le

You speak Chinese better and better.

I don't understand the purpose of the 的 in the beginning?

I would understand the sentence as a "verb - 得 - adjective" structure like this (without the 的)

你中国话说得越来越好了

(or: 你说中国话说得越来越好了)

Or should the original be translated as:

Your Chinese speaks better an better.

[jbradfor]

Consider it as short for 你的中国话[你]说得越来越好了 = your Chinese you speak better and better

That is, "你的中国话" (your Chinese) is the object of the sentence, but it is placed at the beginning of the sentence. The subject, 你, is dropped, as Chinese often does.

[aristotle1990]

I find it helpful to think of it as a passive construction: 你的中国话说得很好 = your Chinese is spoken well.

[abcdefg]

I don't understand the purpose of the 的 in the beginning?... 你的中国话

It (的) makes it clear that it is *your* Chinese which is under discussion.

(Footnote: How refreshing to sometimes see a grammar question which even I can answer.)

[mfgillia]

My first Taiwanese tutor corrects me endlessly when I use two 的 in one phrase but most other native speakers including another tutor generally says it sounds fine. Thanks to the first teacher's conditioning, I would probably either say 我的中文越來越好 or 我中文說的越來越好

[mfgillia]

Re: Aristotle 1990

Out of curiosity - why would you translate your Chinese sentence into passive English? I would generally translate that phrase as "Your Chinese speaking is very good"

[chaiknees]

In the sentence 我中文說的越來越好 it should be 得， not 的。 It is a complement of state, not an attributive construction.

[edelweis]

I agree with Aristotle1990, it is a passive sentence.

你的中国话说得越来越好了

...

Or should the original be translated as:

Your Chinese speaks better an better.

It's "Your Chinese is spoken better and better."

Remember' date=' Chinese passive sentences generally do not have any marker.

[EDIT']The passive sentence "Your Chinese is spoken better and better." is just a way to explain the fact that the subject of the Chinese sentence is "Your Chinese" and not "you". It sounds strange in English since English speakers do not usually use the passive voice to express this sort of thing.[/EDIT]

I encountered the same type of sentence 你的字写得很漂亮 and had the same perplexity over it until I read the "Unmarked passive sentences" explanation in my grammar book.

Other examples (please someone correct if I made mistakes)

你的钱花得太大手大脚了。(jukuu)

You disperse money too liberally. (jukuu)

(your money is spent too liberally)

你的报告写得很不错 (google)

The report you wrote is not bad at all

(your report is written not bad at all)

你的歌唱得很好听 (google)

you sing this song very well

(your song is sung very beautiful to hear)

你的房子卖得很便宜 (google)

you sold your house very cheap

(you house was sold very cheap)

您的护照带来了吗？ (Chinese grammar without tears)

Did you bring your passport?

(was your passport brought ?)

Please note: all unmarked passive sentences do not start with 你的 [EDIT] nor do they necessarily have a 得 complement[/EDIT], of course.

I merely used it as a search pattern, to find sentences similar to your example.

[mfgillia]

Ah, thanks! Just started really studying characters and have a bad habit of selecting the first thing that MS selects with my pinyin. Although, in this case I think I actually changed it to the incorrect character for some reason.. :blink:

Re; Edelweis,

Some very good examples. Probably one of my favorite patterns overall. Now if I can just figure out how to use the real passive markers correctly I'll solve one of my current problems.

[chaiknees]

Distinguishing 的，得，地 is painful :o

[mfgillia]

Especially for those of us that started learning Chinese focusing on speaking and listening and skipping reading and writing for about two years. However, it is sometimes quite interesting to learn which characters are different and which are the same.

[daofeishi]

To digress a bit from the original question:

Distinguishing 的，得，地 is painful

It doesn't have to be. The general rule:

Possession:        NP 的 noun                我门老师的书
                  pronoun 的 noun           他的女朋友
Description:       adjective 的 noun         寂寞的男孩
                  VP 的 noun                没有朋友的人
Adverbs:           adjective/adverb 地 VP    飞快地跑
                  onomatopoeia 地 VP        嘿嘿地笑
Complements:       verb 得 adj               玩得愉快
                  verb 得 VP                疼得受不了
                  adj 得 VP                 美得令人叹息

[daofeishi]

您的护照带来了吗？ (Chinese grammar without tears)

Did you bring your passport?

(was your passport brought ?)

Does "Chinese grammar without tears" really say that this is a passive construction? I would consider it to be a topic-comment construction where the object has been topicalized, i.e. 你带来了护照吗？--> 你的护照带来了吗？

[msittig]

Sinosplice had a post on this recently:

Syntactic Anguish of the Verb-Object-Modifier Variety | Sinosplice - http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2008/10/13/syntactic-anguish-of-the-verb-object-modifier-variety

[edelweis]

@daofeishi: yes, it's an example from the "unmarked passive sentences" paragraph of "Chinese grammar without tears". But since this book is specifically aimed at beginners, it probably avoids too much advanced grammar jargon. (for instance, I think it mentions in another chapter that the object may be placed before the verb /even before the subject/ without 把, but I don't think they ever call it a "topic comment construction").

When the agent is not expressed, is there any difference between a "passive sentence" and a "topic-comment construction"?

Also, is there any difference in your opinion between this specific sentence 您的护照带来了吗 and the other example sentences? (I mean, if there is actually a difference between "unmarked passive sentence" and "topic-comment without agent", which are which?)

@msittig: it's all very confusing really because when 的 is omitted in 你中文说得很好, I feel that 你 is the subject and 中文 is the object, but in 你的中文说得很好 (the expressed) 你 can't be the subject, can it?