Racism

[Comrade Yixian]

Just like to point out that the actual Communist theory conducted in China was not responsible for any of these repercussions.

I'm extensively familiar with Communist theory and am pretty up to speed on the history of revolutionary China and these slogans and lines of thinking were forced in almost soley by the Maoists in the attempt to use the beliefs andemotions of the Chinese people to control them. This in its self is overwhelmingly un-Communist, and it didn't help that the majority of the Communist Party that existed even before the Cultural Revolution were simply opporunists with no real understanding of socialist theory.

Basically, these kinds of beliefs are not products of Communist theory but Maoist opportunism (in this case).

[roddy]

Just like to point out that the actual Communist theory conducted in China was not responsible for any of these repercussions.

Did anyone suggest otherwise

[Comrade Yixian]

Yeah maybe not, but it's a widespread misunderstanding a lot of the world has, I guess I just get a little paranoid Appologies

[arthurdent]

I can't find the 'quote' button - but in response to another post. The wife and I spent almost 2 years in China and not once did we encounter a situation where were told to pay more or were refused access (solely)because we were foreigners. In the example I cited in my previous post I explained that the rickshaw driver used the 'language barrier' as his weapon of choice, not his distrust of foreigners (let's face it, he wouldnt have let us ride if he hated us, right?).

Do u go looking for these places? We weren't exactly hermits and spent most of our time (when not at work) on our own wandering around the cities and towns.

If the trains example is the best u can give, I suggest u lighten up. I mean, is it so bad u couldn't use the hard bed and were forced to use the softer ones? Might it also be a possibility that u were forced to use the more 'luxurious' option because the guy behind the desk was trying to do u a favour? I know people who used the trains and some stood, some used the hard beds, some used the soft (we flew ;)). What u say makes no sense at all.

My point about 'charging a little more' still stands. It's down to u to notice. I don't think for a second that store owners are blessed with a law that 'permits' them to charge more than the norm to foreigners. That is utter rubbish. On various occasions we were told we had paid too much, and returned the difference without us noticing. I 'do' remember those times quite clearly....what does that say?

As for this whole 'superiority' issue = I simply dont see it. I never did when we were there. If anything, one of the 1st eye-openers in China for us was the fact that things weren't actually too much different to back home in the UK. Peoples attitudes, the way they behaved, talked about life and politics = really, no different at all.

This thread seems to be a rant over nothing. Or perhaps the insecurities of weterners inhabiting this part of the forum?

[Jah is God]

[owen]

If the trains example is the best u can give, I suggest u lighten up. I mean, is it so bad u couldn't use the hard bed and were forced to use the softer ones? Might it also be a possibility that u were forced to use the more 'luxurious' option because the guy behind the desk was trying to do u a favour? I know people who used the trains and some stood, some used the hard beds, some used the soft (we flew ;)). What u say makes no sense at all.

there's no such thing as a favour done when the other party hasn't yet decided whether they want that favour or not. Why do you need to go into the details of the trains.. its simple enough to say that they didn't let foreigners make the same choices the locals were able to make = treatment of foreigners is/was different = contributes to the IDEA that foreigners are in fact different = keeps Chinese ignorant about foreigners.

Does that make sense? If no, point to where the mistake in reasoning is.

As to the different prices, the only places i mentioned were hotels which even the lonely planet can tell you about the number of foreigner restricted places. I never made any complaint about overcharging as i agree that that is up to the buyer to notice. I am guessing you are just too rich to ever have noticed the foreigner restricted hotels. Places under 100 yuan are rarely obtainable by foreigners (at least in the places i have travelled). Can you just believe me for argument's sake?

This thread seems to be a rant over nothing. Or perhaps the insecurities of weterners inhabiting this part of the forum?

How does wanting to be treated the same as every one else mean that you are lacking self confidence? Or did you mean insecure in another way?

[arthurdent]

You are certainly right about the hotels. I did hear about them also, but never noticed one. There may well be other reasons why foreigners cannot stay in 100- dollar hotels. They may be reserved for workers or other such groups, I still seriously doubt that there is a law that prevents westerners from staying in certain places. Just depends on whose palms are being rubbed, so to speak ;)

Re: 'Lonely Planet'. No offence but that's the book that stated something along the lines of 'Don't come to Chang Chun, there's not much to see here'. We spent 9 happy months there; Home of the last Chinese emperor (with his palace undergoing some heavyweight restoration work), beautiful parks, one of the largest man-made nature reserves in NE China and wonderful 'down-to-earth' people, very little pollution/clear blue skies (a rarity, believe me). VERY little poverty = compared to cities in the South of China, Chang Chun is a place where very few beggars can be seen on the streets, and the few that u do see - aren't part of a gang, children (okay there were a couple) or visibly exploited.

I wonder what the Lonely Planet says about Foshan? or Guang Zhou? or Beijing? or Tai Yuan? Does it also tell us to 'pass thru'? All of the problems I cited are very much in-your-face in these cities.

Sadly, a lot of people see that book as gospel and whilst it does have some use, it can be quite damaging.

Too rich? Not really, but we didnt slum it that's for sure ;) Just to put this in perspective - I did (once) take a taxi 'round the corner'.

[Pravit]

Chinese(and other Asians) in America go through the same kind of stuff, and it's common enough that they usually don't write about it on internet forums for people learning English. As for your fantasy, owen, you can rest assured that plenty of Americans and Canadians have already lived out that fantasy. Except they don't know "ni hao" so they usually just yell a bunch of "ching chong" nonsense at us. By the way, did you know that because I have small eyes, I happen to be fluent in Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese(however, my English leaves a lot to be desired) and when I'm not busy doing math homework, I'm mastering my kungfu skills? It also means random people have to tell me they love "orange chicken", since this is a famous dish which is prepared in all Asian countries. Despite my amazing skills, I'm also deaf, so it means people five feet away from me can discuss the effeminacy of Asian males and make amazingly witty jokes about the Yellow River. Also, the proper way to greet an Asian professor with a heavy accent is to giggle and shout "I like fried rice!" Afterwards, you can buy tongue-in-cheek T-shirts at Abercrombie and Fitch or the Burlington Coat Factory, with such clever sayings as "Who Flung Poo Chinese Food Delivery" and "2 Wongs Make it White Laundry." And it's okay to say "chinaman" on national TV, as long as you say it in a humorous context.

Ahem. Sorry for my rant, but we Asians have it pretty bad in the West. As for paying more for things, I think this has nothing to do with race. They just think you have more money because you're foreign. If you went to an Eastern European country and tried to get a hotel or apartment, I'm sure they would charge you more. When I'm in Thailand they charge me more for things, even in the Chinese areas, because they can tell I'm foreign. I'm sure that when I go to China I'll have to pay more for things, unless I learn Chinese language and body language so well that they can't tell. A lot of Chinese-Americans who've gone to China tell me they have to pay more since they're foreign.

[J.B. Frog]

Pravit, where are you that you encountered such things? Or, are those the accumulated experiences of a lifetime?

Wow, I had no idea Westerners were so rude. I might expect it in some backwater, but nowhere metropolitan.

[Pravit]

I live in a fairly small city in the American southwest, but from talking with other Asian-Americans who live in metropolitan areas(and even areas with high concentrations of Asians such as San Francisco) it is no better there. In fact, they say it's sometimes worse - Asians are perceived as more of a threat there since there's more of them. I'm not saying Westerners are rude, on the whole I actually think they're more polite in some ways than Asians(for instance, they always make an effort to hold doors open for people or say "excuse me" even if they don't bump into you), but some of them can sure be racist. It amazes me that you can actually buy T-shirts like that in the United States(someone recently called Burlington Coat Factory complaining about their shirts, and the salesperson simply replied with "Well, gee, I don't see how they could be racist"). What irks me more is that people would actually want to buy overpriced shirts(ironically most likely made in Asian sweatshops) for the sake of pissing off Asians. Can you buy T-shirts with racist images of white people on them in China? Are Westerners, in general, fairly well received in China(a recent post by the user "website" comes to mind)? Are there a lot of Western celebrities which are well-liked in Asia? Are there demeaning and insulting portrayals of Westerners in Asian cinema? Think of that, then think of what the average Asian guy in the US or Canada will go through. I'm not saying what the earlier poster experienced in the video store was justified. Perhaps I was just offended by owen's post. Had he known that such racism is a very real occurence for Asians in his home country(and I dare say it happens much more frequently), I don't think he would have had such a daydream.

I disagree. I know a number of foreigners who have been attacked physically (to the point of being bruised in some cases), explicitly for being foreigners in Japan and have heard and read of this sort of thing elsewhere in East Asia. Most of the time foreigners don't even go to the police for this because they believe, rightly in my opinion, that the police will do nothing. I know people who have and the cops don't care.

Were they white? For some reason I have this feeling that they were immigrant workers from some other Asian country, as opposed to European tourists on holiday. But I could be wrong.

[owen]

Pravit.. I have trouble believing you but I will try. I have travelled all over North America, and lived in various places and if i were to see any of the behaviour you described i would be shocked. What you are talking about sounds about 40 years old. So maybe if you are dealing with older people then i could imagine that kind of stuff. What I am saying is not that you are lying but my perspective has been formed on the basis (admittedly possibly mistaken based on your evidence) that that kind of thing rarely happens in North America (again, southern US could quite reasonably be an exception) anymore. Especially with the huge minority populations. It just isn't practical anymore to be racist.

arthurdent... I know the lonely planet is way less than perfect and anyone who takes it as gospel is missing alot.

[liuzhou]

I still seriously doubt that there is a law that prevents westerners from staying in certain places

There most certainly is such a law. Any hotel, guest house etc. wishing to accomodate foreign guests must be specifically authorised to do so.

(This law was recently revoked for Beijing, but I don't know how effective this has been.)

Just depends on whose palms are being rubbed

Of course, and this applies to all Chinese laws, some much more serious than whether we can stay in hotel X or not.

Doesn't negate the fact that the law exist though.

Also, until relatively recently (1997) it was government policy to charge foreigners more(double or more) for hotel accommodation, rail travel etc.Although they reversed that policy, it is a hard habit for some hoteliers to break.

That said, ever tried to buy a Coke outside Madame Toussauds in London? I recommend everyone try it - just to see how some British treat our foreign guests.

[Pravit]

Owen, I don't mean to be rude, but you aren't Asian, therefore, you don't know the extent of the racism that we encounter in your country. Likewise, I am not white, so I don't know the stuff that you go through in China. I was rather shocked to hear that people were rude to you in Asia, but I'm taking your word for it. Visit these sites and explain why these shirts were mass-produced and sold nationwide considering such racism isn't "practical anymore."

http://img53.exs.cx/img53/646/burl3.jpg

http://img53.exs.cx/img53/2362/burl5.jpg

http://img53.exs.cx/img53/4701/burl7.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1938914.stm

(it might be mentioned that the A&F shirts in question have been pulled off the shelves, but as far as I know, the other shirts are still selling).

And again, why is it OK to say "chinaman" on national TV in this country?

Some of the articles on this site are interesting:

http://www.angryasianman.com/

http://www.modelminority.com/

(admittedly, a lot of the time they're just spouting hot air, but some of the things will shock you if you think that racism in the West is mostly gone)

I am not dealing with older people here. The majority of the racism I've experienced comes from younger people in their late teens - early twenties, although there are exceptions. And I know my list may seem like people drive by and yell racial slurs at me every day(actually, it's only happened twice), but I was simply listing all of the rudeness I've encountered in the US. I would estimate that things like that happened a couple times a month when I was in high school; in college it has been a bit better, I'd say maybe a couple times a year now. Maybe you could attribute a lot of that to immature young Americans, but if I ever have kids, I sure as hell don't want them to grow up here. As for staring and store clerks/waiters giving me weird looks, that happens every time I leave the house.

[Quest]

I have travelled all over North America, and lived in various places and if i were to see any of the behaviour you described i would be shocked. What you are talking about sounds about 40 years old.

Racism is everywhere in the US.

[owen]

Except for the first one, which is mildly offensive on the basis that it pokes fun at the language, I don't see what is so terrible about those shirts. I wouldn't wear one but they seem like they're just trying (unfashionably) to cash in on some asian flavour - which is perhaps offensive aesthetically but hardly racist.

As to your details... ya they sound pretty horrific. And i already said i took your word for it. I know i don't know your experience and you don't know mine, and actually your experience sounds a little more hostile than mine. My problems are mostly just frustration from not being able to be anonymous.

Details are kind of imperfect for this kind of discussion I guess. My feeling - my original point - is that China has a fundamentally different take on racism than the west. I really don't think that that is very outrageous to say considering history starting with.. ahem... the great wall of China.

I was watching a TV program on CCTV the other day about a golf tournament (or some sport gathering) for overseas chinese to reunite. They were talking to organizers and participants and talking about how its a great chance to come together and remember what it means to be 'Chinese', remember their roots, etc. Essentially, what it means to have an epicanthic fold and have relatives from China (which is what i think it takes to get Chinese citizenship as far as i know). So I was pretty annoyed, thinking, it means nothing that you are Chinese unless you grew up in China. Alot of Chinese families (ok not alot, but that is my point), have that attitude in North America that we are Chinese - we are part of something different. I had a date once with a girl who's parents were Cantonese in Canada. After one date she told me that she wouldn't be able to see me again on account of her parents dissaproving. At the time I remember thinking... 'oh ya, many Chinese families are really traditional', as i had heard of this kind of occurence alot, and accepted it. Now, after having been in China for nearly 2 years I translate that euphemism 'traditional' into 'racist' or 'ignorant'.

[geraldc]

Areas of the UK have problems for the Chinese too.

I really feel for some of the Chinese students who go overseas to study, some of them have no idea what they're getting into.

[Pravit]

So you're saying the pictures of little grinning slant-eyed fellows in pointed hats aren't racist? As well as playing on stereotypes of Asians speaking bad English or owning laundries and restaurants? In contrast, do you think clothing companies would mass-produce T-shirts with caricatures of black people and stereotypical "black" English for young white men to wear?

About me, I can't be anonymous in the States either I really loved walking around Bangkok and having absolutely nobody take any interest in me.

It's true that overseas Chinese may not be as "Chinese" in a sense as the ones that grew up in China. But most of them do try very hard to maintain their culture. Were these Chinese that were born in China, or children of them?

[Lu]

That law that prevented westerners to stay in certain places doesn't exist anymore. I'm not sure how effective it is in respect to housing (though I think it would be effective enough, most people, also most Chinese I think, would let a room or an apartment to anyone who pays the rent), but for hotels it works. Two years ago I travelled to several places in China, and I think the most I paid for a night in a hotel was 30-40 kuai. The least was 10 kuai, for room in the basement :-/

[marcopolo79]

That law that prevented westerners to stay in certain places doesn't exist anymore. I'm not sure how effective it is in respect to housing (though I think it would be effective enough, most people, also most Chinese I think, would let a room or an apartment to anyone who pays the rent), but for hotels it works.

This is simply not the case, or at least was not the case as of 2003 when I last lived in the Mainland. Especially in more corrupt, backwards locales (such as Harbin) where everything that is related to foreigners residing in the area under a certain PSB jurisdiction has to be accomplished through an incredible series of dinners, favors, bribes, etc. While in some locations these laws might not be stringently enforced (i.e. Shanghai, Beijing, Kunming), this is not true of the country as a whole. In certain situations you might be able to stay in a hostel or hotel that is not specifically registered to accomodate foreigners, but you can't count on it. As any foreign resident who has received the local rules and regulations handbook for foreigners can attest, the vast number of the laws and the extent to which they could conceivably impact your choices if they were fully enforced is shocking.

If the situation has indeed changed, then I would be very interested in hearing about it.

Regarding the topic of this chat, I think that the main difference in American and Chinese racism lies in the differing ideologies that are promulgated by their respective governments.

Pravit, I think it is unfortunate that you have encuntered so much ignorance and stupidity, but I can assure you that is the result of individual idiots and not indicative of anti-Asian racist trends in American society. For the past 20 -30 years the American government has actively advocated the ideals of multiculturalism. It's my belief that the elevation of political correctness to the level of sacrosanct ideology can cause a backlash, and that political correctness obscures some race based issues that sorely need to be discussed, but overall the level of racism as an active force is relatively minor. People might be insensitive or ignorant, but it is also up to you to speak up if and point out their ignorance, if you don't they might not change their ways. The important point here is that the government is officially supportive of multi-culturalism (although far less so under the current administration) and the notion of a purely white America is a notion that has been statistically, culturally, and politically consigned to the dust bin of history.

The Chinese government on the other hand actively sponsors a Han-centric/Han-chauvenistic nationalist identity ideology, this identity formation affects the relationship between Han Chinese and the numerous minorities within the borders of China as well as with foreigners. This notion of a racial definition based on nationality is firmly emeshed in the Chinese mind, the difference between民族and種族is one that is not so strictly observed (i.e. newspapers refer to babies born of one non-Chinese Asian parent as 混血兒). I feel that the different constructions of racial based identity, one based on phenotype in America as opposed to the ethnicity based definition in China, as well as the extent to which these notions are reinforced through the media and society, are the major differences that affect interaction between people of different backgrounds in these two societies.

As for the discussion of whether or not Chinese racism is as old as China itself, I think the answer is yes and no. Traditionally, the Chinese called their corner of the world 天下, they assumed that the areas in contact with Chinese civilization were the true extent of the world, the interaction between China and other soverign entities was conducted through the 冊封制度　and through the institutionalization of 朝貢. All of the above reflect a worldview that was centered upon the notion of Chinese culture as the center of civilization, but, unlike the contemporary Chinese notion of a ethnic-based identification, the degree of closeness to Chinese civilization was the main factor in determining "self" as opposed to "other". This flexible identity based on culture, especially the written culture, was what allowed the people who spoke various dialects, as well as non-Han peoples, to be considered part of the same cultural sphere. In the eras when Chinese influence extended all the way to Trans-Oxiana, the cultural sphere included many people whose skin type and racial classification must have differed markedly from that of Han Chinese. Although it is customary to refer to the last dynasty as 滿清朝, all the other dynasties ruled by people of foreign descent have been acknowledged as being, more or less, quintessentially Chinese, or evolving towards a Chinese mode. In contrast, all the terms related to modern racial and national classification are foreign words, imported via Japanese, that have been constructed over the past 150 years, give or take.

To make a long story short, the Chinese have always viewed their culture as the hallmark of civilization, but it was only recently that this acquired a racial component. I think it is also worth pointing out that the racialized notion of Chinese superiority was, as in Meiji/Taisho era Japan, a direct result of Western Imperialism, and would not have arose if it had not first encountered Western race based views on humanity.

[Pravit]

Marcopolo, thanks for your excellent post! I agree with you about the US and must admit I do not know that much about China yet.

[gao_bo_han]

marcopolo, bravo! bravo!

That was the most lucid explanation of the differences between racism in the US versus in China that I've seen on this forum. I posted something similar on forumosa.com, though it was in reference to Taiwan's circumstances uniquely, not Mainland China's. It is one thing to have goofy t-shirts, quite another to develop a legal system intrinsically discriminatory against foreigners.

Pravit, concerning your post, my Taiwanese-born, American-raised wife looked it over and laughed. She says she can only remember one such instance where she grew up in a small town in East Texas, in junior high school when another student gave her the "ching chong" routine. Once, in her many years in the United States. She did agree with you that it felt nice to walk around Taiwan and have no one notice her at all though

By the way, what kind of shithole university did you go to where students laughed at an Asian professor and yelled "I like fried rice"!? I majored in East Asian Politics, and took 5 semesters of Chinese language, and never saw anything remotely close to what you said. And trust me, I had two visiting professors from China and South Korea who had truly poor English. Sorry, but I don't believe you on this one