Lower Intermediate - How to progress

[roddy]

I'd agree - there just aren't the resources for learning Chinese without characters past anything but the most basic level. If you can do even ten minutes a day you'll see progress and you'll be able to read simple books, use subtitles as a crutch when watching TV*, choose from a way wider range of textbooks. Given that you've already got the vocabulary you may find the learning comes (at least initially) faster than you think.

*Idea for a bit more challenging speaking practice - get your wife to choose a Chinese TV show she'd like to watch, watch it with her, and bug her with questions when you need to. Or do the same with movies.

[Neil_H]

We do have access to Phoenix TV through our satellite dish and can record programs from it.

I do have a book called Turtle learning Chinese characters which has around 800 of the most important characters with easy methods to learn them.

I currently devote around 1 hour a day to my Chinese study.

[renzhe]

I can't prove this, but I also believe that learning characters makes learning Chinese easier. The reason is that it makes you much more independent:

- you can use a dictionary

- you can use intermediate and advanced textbooks

- you can read subtitles (exposure to spoken language)

- you can read books (exposure to grammar and sentence patterns)

- you can search the Internet for more information

In other words, it becomes very easy (and much faster) to teach yourself. If you can't read, you are dependent on other people to teach you each new word. It's quicker to pick out 20 important words from a novel and google them than to have somebody teach you each and every one of them through conversation. Learning characters really sucks up your time in the beginning, but it pays off later, because it really accelerates your learning.

For some people, it might make sense to simply learn basic conversation, if this is all they are interested in. But if you ever want to speak at a level of a high-school student or above, I think that not learning characters will make it harder in the long run.

1 hour per day is plenty, for a hobbyist. I would recommend using a flashcard program (like Anki), and trying to learn the top 1000 characters using the book you have. Use Anki for review (it is quite clever and will save you much time). You don't need more than 20-30 minutes per day for this. Use the rest for listening practice and grammar. In a year, you should have covered the 1000 characters comfortably.

[JenniferW]

I also live in the UK and am studying on my own - though have attended some classes and courses in the past. I, too am beyond the beginner / elementary stage, somewhere on the lower slopes of the intermediate mountain.

I realised I needed something to provide me with a mixture of structured input, a sort of syllabus, and something to help as regards motivation. I decided to take exams. First of all I did the UK GCSE in Mandarin, then I did the old HSK and got level 2, then I did the new HSK and got level 3. I can carry on like this for years - there are enough levels to tackle! And you can take all these exams at several places in the UK. What it's done is to give me an outline for a year of study, as regards vocabulary, grammar - everything except speaking. For me, this works, because after working in China for 6 years, my speaking got to a level where the other aspects were way behind that. And now, there's also an option for an HSK speaking exam, so I can factor that in, too. Plus I get practice on visits back to China. And each exam has given me a deadline to really get stuck into the next stage.

The HSK exam specifies a list of characters for me to learn for each level, and I get the impression all the standard course books are working around the same set of topics and grammar structures. For the UK exams (both GCSE and A level) you get a high quality syllabus, specifying all the grammar, etc - all available online). So I, too, think you have to take on learning characters sooner or later.

But more than anything else, I'd say look at your long-term aims ..... would you choose in learning ANY language to put yourself in the subset of users who are illiterate? It's a hard truth, but that's what you'll be if you never tackle reading, and then some basic writing, in the language you've chosen to learn.

[Neil_H]

Thanks,

Doing the GCSE Chinese was something I had been thinking about earlier in the year.

I do need that sense of achievement – goal to work towards along with some structure.

Jumping ahead to my long term goals they started out as being able to translate for my parents in law and help teach our daughter to speak both Chinese and English. When you get a certain way into Chinese you realise you are too far in to stop and waste what you have learnt but also a long way from where you want to get to. That is kind of where I am now.

[abcdefg]

Am I the only person who thinks that learning characters might actually make things easier (I'm NOT talking about writing characters by hand)?

Agree with @Valikor and others. I started out initially 3-4 years ago with the attitude "Don't bother me with characters, maybe later; for now I just want to learn how to talk."

But it was an almost impossible task without knowing characters and I also really chafed at being illiterate. It irritated me; it pissed me off to be less capable at negotiating the activities of daily life in China than a six year old kid or an eighty year old rural farmer. Progressed much more rapidly and found study more satisfying after embracing Hanzi and becoming able to read.

And I also agree that it's immensely satisfying to meet a brand new word and know what it means because you recognize its parts, as with the squirrel illustration.

When you get a certain way into Chinese you realise you are too far in to stop and waste what you have learnt but also a long way from where you want to get to.

What you have learned so far won't be wasted. I went through a long spell of "Oh, so that's what that looks like" when encountering the written form of things I already knew by ear. In fact, it stil happens today.

[Glenn]

I also think knowing characters makes things easier, because sometimes you've got a clear illustration of the meaning of a word right there in front of you. Sometimes it's funny seeing how certain things are thought about, or just seeing a literal part-for-part translation into Chinese.

Oh, and the "Oh, so that's what that looks like" phenomenon happens to me in English too. I'm not sure that knowing spoken language and having to learn written language later is quite what Neil_H meant by "When you get a certain way into Chinese you realise you are too far in to stop and waste what you have learnt but also a long way from where you want to get to" though. If that were the case, knowing the word "rendezvous" but not having seen it would be completely destroyed when you also learned how to spell it, or what its roots are. That's obviously not the case.

[Neil_H]

I mean as in too far in to quit and lose over 2 years of study time.

As I write down all the words I learn in Pinyin in my notebook it is not the case that I only have what I heard to go by.

I should already know the Pinyin and spoken words for most of the characters I need to learn until they meet around the 1000 words mark.

[feihong]

I currently devote around 1 hour a day to my Chinese study.

I think that's actually more than enough time to tackle characters. I only spend around half an hour each day reviewing my character flashcards in Anki (and I add new flashcards at a pretty aggressive pace). That would give you another half hour to do whatever kind of learning you like to do.

Note though that I don't count the time I took to make the flashcards. Initially I made all my flashcards myself and it was very time-consuming, but now I export flashcards from my dictionary program instead, which doesn't take much time.

[Glenn]

I should already know the Pinyin and spoken words for most of the characters I need to learn until they meet around the 1000 words mark.

I imagine that would lighten the load of learning the characters a bit, especially once you start learning how the phonetic components work. I went the other way. I'm having to learn readings as I go, although I'm comfortable with probably most of the syllables at this point. The big thing is usually getting the tone, since that information isn't to be found anywhere in the characters that I'm aware of, although it seems some are fairly consistent, like if it has 里 in it there's a good chance it's a 3rd tone in my experience, and to be read lǐ, more specifically (as always, corrections welcome).

[JenniferW]

The bonus no-one's yet mentioned is the respect you get for being able to use characters - from the Chinese. Many are getting used to foreigners who can speak a bit, but when they see you can write a bit it seems to mark you out as someone who's serious about their language, and I think you're seen as seriously respecting it.

You have the advantage of a literate native speaker there to help you get things right from the start as regards writing - stroke order, etc - so you should be able to get some positive feedback fairly quickly. But real life experiences are the best - being able to start to read the trivia around you in China, and in writing, for me it felt like the ultimate achievement the day I was able to write a note to tell the milk delivery person I'd be away for the weekend and please don't leave me any milk!

The UK GCSE syllabus and exam (Edexcel) is not at all bad. Bear in mind the topics are designed for teenagers, though. But I'm sure you can put yourself back in their place and write an email, for example, telling your friend what sports event you're going to at the weekend, with who, etc, which was one of the exam writing tasks the year I took it. There's a not-too-bad coursebook for it now. The first one was a bit dire.

[xiaotao]

Nothing is impossible if you have tons of time and patience. As for me, I don't make a point to learn to write because I easily forget. Reading books with zhuyin fuhao has helped me in recognizing lots of characters and learning new vocabulary. I have a large selection of books with zhuyin and they are not low level. I listen to podcast, watch movies, and sometimes pause to to look up on Pleco. I don't practice speaking Mandarin with anyone particular. Sometimes I I get a chance to speak to somebody that only knows how to speak Chinese, but that is rare. I get lots of satisfaction in understaning movies. You just have to enjoy it. It will come sooner or later.

[imron]

Progressed much more rapidly and found study more satisfying after embracing Hanzi and becoming able to read.

Over the years, there have been a number of forum members who've basically had the same revelation.

To Neil_H, all I would say is, it's time to bite the bullet. You say you're too far in to quit, but you're now at point where if you want to progress beyond lower intermediate you basically need to embrace characters (everyone else has listed all the reasons above, so no need for me to repeat them here).

If nothing else, it will be significantly easier for the first 1000 words because you already know their pronunciation, meaning and usage, so all you need to do is learn how to recognize them.

[roddy]

This topic has inspired me to make some changes to my 'advice for the new and independent student' piece.

Then again, what if someone has good reasons for not learning to read. Being blind strikes me as one, albeit extreme, possibility. What strategies do you then adopt?