小猫小姐 Posted January 31, 2011 at 05:37 AM Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 05:37 AM In mandarin, I almost always hear 远,原,院,etc pronounced as "yüehn." But the other day I listened to the folksong 卓玛 sung by a tibetan singer, and he pronounced 草原 as "tsao yüahn" - very clear "ah" vowel. I know it's not huge difference and I'm really splitting hairs, but I'm just curious if this is some kind of regional accent of ㄩㄣ? Anyone knows? -晓雪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creamyhorror Posted January 31, 2011 at 07:55 AM Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 07:55 AM I've heard the "yuahn" pronunciation too, and I'm curious to know who uses it and for which words. It's like 有/友/etc. and 又: I pronounce them differently, as "yo" and "yew" respectively. I don't know if it's an artifact of Singaporean Mandarin or if there's some basis to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferW Posted January 31, 2011 at 09:00 AM Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 09:00 AM Tibetan singer singing in their second language? If so, have you spotted a well-known change in pronunciation (well known to linguists), where speakers start to model their pronunciation on the orthography, or their pronunciation is affected by their knowledge of the written form of the word. For most Chinese, using pinyin for a relatively short period as part of learning characters for their writing system, for a Tibetan, dependancy on pinyin may have greater influence. An example in English is the pronunciation(s) of 'library'. Or - have you got an interference effect, from the Tibetan vowel system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Horhe Posted January 31, 2011 at 09:41 AM Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 09:41 AM I think there's more to it than L1 affecting L2, since I've heard 'yuahn' (albeit rarely) on CCTV commercials and radio talk shows. IMHO, the underlying final is indeed /an/, but changes to [ɛn/æn] in front of /y/, and the reason why a performer might change the 'e' sound into 'a' might be purely for rhyming purposes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted January 31, 2011 at 02:14 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 02:14 PM I've heard 元-finals pronounced /yan/ in some kind of opera, and other 山攝 finals also have /a/ nuclei. I think it's for rhyming purposes. In addition, some initials are different from Beijingese speech. For example, 心 initials are /s/, 精 initials are /ts/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted January 31, 2011 at 08:17 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 08:17 PM Is it something like how Faye Wong pronounces 圓 in 何事長向別時圓 in the song 但願人長久?And also like the 娟 in 千里共嬋娟? (Note that her pronunciation is not consistent and they only appear at the end of the line. Could be a singing thing.) PS - also the 全 in 此事古難全. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu Posted January 31, 2011 at 08:37 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 08:37 PM I've heard yuan with an a on a very old record (1930s?) that came with a very old Chinese-for-foreigners course by a famous Chinese linguist whose name I can't think of now (Zhao Yuanren perhaps?). Must have been standard at the time, and it explained to me why yuan is not written yuen in pinyin. That being said, I wouldn't take the pronounciation of something by a Tibetan as example for something occuring in Mandarin (unless of course that Tibetan spoke very good Mandarin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted January 31, 2011 at 11:44 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 11:44 PM and it explained to me why yuan is not written yuen in pinyin. The way I understand, -üan is simply pronounced differently from -uan, and yuan, quan and xuan actually have the -üan final, with the umlaut/diaeresis symbol dropped. I don't remember ever hearing quan and xuan pronounced with with an [a] sound, but somebody is bound to find a recording which proves me wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinadoog Posted February 1, 2011 at 03:01 PM Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 at 03:01 PM I've also noticed that in a Wang Fei song. I think it was the part where she says 我一直在你身旁,从未走远。 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugi Posted February 2, 2011 at 06:55 AM Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 at 06:55 AM FWIW, I remember someone in my undergrad class years ago asking almost the same question, and our lecturer saying that [an] used to be the Beijing standard at the turn of the century (i.e. late Qing/early Republic), but had since changed to [ɛn/æn]. He also said some Mandarin dialects have retained the [an] pronunciation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted February 2, 2011 at 11:51 AM Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 at 11:51 AM Mugi, if you remember, was that for yuan only, or for all -üan finals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
小猫小姐 Posted February 23, 2011 at 04:41 AM Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 at 04:41 AM This is the song I was talking about, anyway: I can find hardly any info on the singer (张亚东) but apparently he is Tibetan Chinese from Sichuan, so I'd assume he's fluent in Mando and never depended on pinyin enough for it to influence how he pronounces -üan. So I guess that's out. Is it something like how Faye Wong pronounces 圓 in 何事長向別時圓 in the song 但願人長久?And also like the 娟 in 千里共嬋娟? (Note that her pronunciation is not consistent and they only appear at the end of the line. Could be a singing thing.) Yes! But in this case the "yuahn" isn't at the end (“啊~卓玛 / 草原上 / 的格桑花”)。 So it's not for rhyming purposes either. [but notice in the beginning of the song, female backup singers pronounce 原 the usual way (yüen)!] Hmm! Mystery mystery! Times like this I wish I still took Chinese class。 FWIW, I remember someone in my undergrad class years ago asking almost the same question, and our lecturer saying that [an] used to be the Beijing standard at the turn of the century (i.e. late Qing/early Republic), but had since changed to [ɛn/æn]. He also said some Mandarin dialects have retained the [an] pronunciation... I suspected something similar to this!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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