On noun+verb -compounds

[youreallygotme]

Probably a stupid question but why is this sentence right:

你的工作找的怎么样了?

And this wrong:

你的找工作的怎么样了?

Intenion is to say: How's your job seeking?

[imron]

Technically both are wrong. It should be:

你的工作找得怎么样了?

The 得 means that 怎么样了 refers to the result of the verb 找.

The second one is just completely wrong.

[skylee]

Some people do write like the first one, either because they don't understand the difference between 得 and 的, or it is a habit they don't bother to change, or they think it is right. But imron is right.

[jbradfor]

Asking "why" about grammar -- in any language, not just Chinese -- while I wouldn't call it "stupid", is somewhat problematic. Grammar just describes what a language does, how people usually phrase something.

That said, the closest to a "why" I can suggest is that in Chinese, when the verb is only one character, the object almost always comes before the verb, not after.

[youreallygotme]

So it's a 得 construction... now I completely get it. I always thought this sentence is just somehow weird because of the 的, but just accepted it as it is. I got it from a QQ conversation, which explains the bad grammar

Interestingly Google gives three times more results for the sentence written with 的 than with 得.

Because of the incorrect writing of the above sentence I started to believe that in Mandarin, there's a noun+verb compound structure like this:

工作找的 ~ job seeking

书看的 ~ book reading (the reading of the book)

饭作的 ~ making food

etc

Please tell me if this is wrong

[imron]

Interestingly Google gives three times more results for the sentence written with 的 than with 得.

Put it in the same category as native English speakers confusing their, there, they're and your, you're etc.

I'd put the higher incidence down to automatic sentence prediction with the IME choosing the incorrect form of 'de', and people not caring enough to correct it.

Please tell me if this is wrong

I'm not a native speaker, but I think it is wrong.

[Kenny同志]

Imron's right. But in ancient vernacular Chinese where we modern people would expect a 得, it is often a 的.

PS: More google hits don't necessarily mean the phrasing is right / better.

[skylee]

But in ancient vernacular Chinese where we modern people would expect a 得, it is often a 的

Which reminds me that 張愛玲 mentioned that instead of 很好 her aunt liked to write 狠好. Of course that was before things were standardised. And then we have different standards.

還有，她老是寫着“狠好”，“狠高興”，我同她辯駁過，她不承認她這裏應當用“很”字。後來我問她：“那麽，‘凶狠’的‘狠’字，姑姑怎麽寫呢？”她也寫作“狠”。我說：“那麽那一個‘很’字要它做什麽呢？姑姑不能否認，是有這麽一個字的。”她想想，也有理。我又說：“現在沒有人寫‘狠好’了。一這樣寫，馬上把自己歸入了周瘦鵑他們那一代。”她果然從此改了。

[youreallygotme]

Thanks to everybody for the helpful posts.

How about these? Is there a structure like this?

工作的找 ~ job seeking (the seeking of the job)

书的看 ~ book reading (the reading of the book)

饭的作 ~ making food （the making of the food)

If so, would this be correct:

你工作的找怎么样了？

[anonymoose]

That said, the closest to a "why" I can suggest is that in Chinese, when the verb is only one character, the object almost always comes before the verb, not after.

[chaiknees]

How about these? Is there a structure like this?

工作的找 ~ job seeking (the seeking of the job)

书的看 ~ book reading (the reading of the book)

饭的作 ~ making food （the making of the food)

If so, would this be correct:

你工作的找怎么样了？

Why are you so crazy about the 的 ? Seems you confuse it with 得 which is a complement marker but not used to turn a verb into a noun.

你 (找) 工作 找得 怎么样 = How is your job search going?

我 找的 工作 = The job which I am/was searching for...

Your examples above sound strange, I am not sure if they are correct or not :huh:

[creamyhorror]

How about these? Is there a structure like this?

工作的找 ~ job seeking (the seeking of the job)

书的看 ~ book reading (the reading of the book)

饭的作 ~ making food （the making of the food)

No, these examples are wrong. This structure is valid in Japanese but not Chinese.

Generally, the verb comes before the object. The correct forms would be:

找工作 ~ job seeking (the seeking of the job)

看书 ~ book reading (the reading of the book)

做饭 ~ making food （the making of the food)

(edited)

[anonymoose]

工作的找 sounds wrong, but it is permissible to say 工作的寻找.

[skylee]

I agree with creamyhorror (but shouldn't it be 做飯?). I don't agree with anonymoose that 工作的寻找 is permissible.

[anonymoose]

I don't agree with anonymoose that 工作的寻找 is permissible.

Well, if Skylee disagrees with me, then I'm probably wrong, but there are enough examples of its use on the net:

http://wenwen.soso.com/z/q221554602.htm

http://bbs.51job.com/topic.php?tid=141618

http://wenwen.soso.com/z/q108129859.htm

http://careerplanning.abang.com/od/zysy/a/jiuye1.htm

http://www.rc114.com/html/CareerGuide/2009/0417/3228.htm

...and plently more if you do a Google search.

[Kenny同志]

It's passable, but in no way good. Almost all of them can be replaced by 找工作.

Anyway, 工作的寻找 simply sounds awkward to me.

[youreallygotme]

Whoa! I'm impressed by all the knowledge you all have shared! Finally I got this block of confusion out of my head! Thanks!

[creamyhorror]

Thanks for the correction, skylee.

but it is permissible to say 工作的寻找.

Well, at the least it's awkward- or stilted-sounding. The default/natural form is a verb-object phrase rather than "object的verb".

(I wonder if this sort of structure might be getting more common due to books/media being poorly translated from other languages (Japanese and English in particular, where the structure is normal)...)

[xiaocai]

I think it depends on how you look at the word 寻找. I think it can be used as a noun but only in limited circumstances. I have to say it sounds quite awkward to me without any context. I think it is better not to use it unless you don't have any better way to say it.

[youreallygotme]

Ok, to sum it up a bit I understand so far that you can use the phrase

'找工作' to mean 'job seeking'

but you can't use it in a sentence like this:

*你 找工作 怎么样？ (Imron's first reply)

The proper way to ask the question: "How's your job seeking?" is this:

你工作找得怎么样？

What if you leave the object out of the original sentence， like this:

你找的怎么样？(How's your searching)

Is this plausible or common?

And if in the last sentence you replace the 的 with 得...

你找得怎么样？

...the meaning is same (How's your searching) but grammatically it's different from the 的-version?