Master Rakoczi Posted April 17, 2011 at 03:19 PM Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 at 03:19 PM Could someone help me understand the structure (and meaning) of this sentence: 我找人换的位置。 Context: A person is telling about a past situation in the train where he is looking for a power outlet but there are only a few so he needs to change seats with someone. How to break this down and how should it be translated? What is the object of 找？ What is the subject(/object) of 换？What is 的 modifying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted April 17, 2011 at 05:26 PM Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 at 05:26 PM Is it literally something like "I'm looking for a seat that someone is swapping" so 的 would be attaching 位置 to 人换, for "a seat that someone is swapping." The object of 找 would then be '人换的位置'. It could be that it's very idiomatic / slangy, so it doesn't really fall into a standard grammatical pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludens Posted April 17, 2011 at 06:39 PM Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 at 06:39 PM I read it to translate to "I'm trying to find someone changing seats" -> "I'm trying to find someone to change seats with", instead of "I'm looking for a seat that someone is swapping". I have no idea though, I'm just giving it a try hoping to learn myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted April 17, 2011 at 06:58 PM Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 at 06:58 PM @Ludens Yes I agree with those as idiomatic translations. I was just trying to get across how the Chinese sentence is structured with a literal translation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted April 17, 2011 at 09:49 PM Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 at 09:49 PM I would read it as "The seat I swapped with someone else". I think in this sentence "找人换" should be read as a single unit meaning "swapped with someone" that is describing the 位置. Compare and contrast with 我自己的位置 and 我原来的位置。In your original sentence “找人换" serves the same grammatical function that 自己 and 原来 would here. I could of course be completely wrong, but that is just how I would read it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semantic nuance Posted April 18, 2011 at 12:46 AM Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 at 12:46 AM imron is correct. 找人換(來)的 is as imron translated-- swapped with someone. EX: 他不想喝果汁，想喝汽水。這是我找人換(來)的汽水。He doesn't want to drink juice but soda. This is the soda I swapped with someone else. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gougou Posted April 18, 2011 at 05:14 AM Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 at 05:14 AM Couldn't it be that the 的 here is just unnecessary/wrong? 我找人换位置 would make more sense in the context of being looking for a seat, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semantic nuance Posted April 18, 2011 at 06:51 AM Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 at 06:51 AM It depends. If you use 我找人換位置, it is-- I find someone to swap the seat. The emphasis is more on the changing seat itself. But, if you use (這是)我找人換(來)的位置, then 的 here cannot be deleted. The stress is more on the seat being swapped. Ex: A: 你坐在這裡會看不清楚黑板上的字，怎麼辦? B: 沒關係! 我找人換位置。 A: Taking this seat, you won't be able to see the words on the blackboard clearly, so what are you gonna do? B: That won't be a problem. I'll find someone to swap the seat. A: 你怎麼會坐在這裡呢? 你不是坐在教室後面嗎? B: 喔! 這是我找人換(來)的位置。 A: Why are you sitting here? Isn't your seat in the back of the classroom? B: Oh! This is the seat I swapped with someone else. Hope it helps! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Rakoczi Posted April 18, 2011 at 06:21 PM Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 at 06:21 PM @East Asia Student: Grammatically I understand your explanation the best. So literally it would be: 我找人换的位置。 I look-for someone-swapping seat. (OR: I look for a seat that someone is swapping.) 我 subject1 找 verb1 人换的位置 object1 人 subject2 换 verb2 位置 object2 What do others think, is this a plausible way to understand it? @gougou: I think you are right. The 的 might be unnecessary and just an accident the person said because of tiredness etc. I think the intended meaning was: "I looked for someone to swap places with." At least the sentence without 的 makes so much more sense to my simple brain Anyway I'm very glad that this brought up the construction presented by imron and further explained by semantic nuance. Very informative stuff indeed. This is exactly why I love this forum. However I still don't completely understand how 找人换的 can be translated as 'swapped with someone'. If translated literally it's just 'search someone swap'? Does the 来 (as added by semantic nuance) change the meaning somehow? Could you give some other example which has the same construction (verb-noun-verb-DE) but with completetly different words? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 18, 2011 at 07:55 PM Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 at 07:55 PM To me it feels like the 的 in 找人換(來)的 is an indefinite pronoun, like "one". I'm not sure if that's the right way to interpret it, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted April 18, 2011 at 10:02 PM Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 at 10:02 PM What do others think, is this a plausible way to understand it? With the 的 in the sentence, I don't think it makes sense to think of it as 我 找 人换的位置. To me, the 人换的位置 seems an awkward construction as an object, but I am not a native speaker so I can't say with certainty if this is the case. and just an accident the person said because of tiredness etc. Do you have any more context (i.e. sentences before and after this one?). That would certainly help us know for sure. Could you give some other example which has the same construction (verb-noun-verb-DE) but with completetly different words? Off the top of my head: 花钱买的 - bought with money (as opposed to obtaining through other means) 用笔写的 - written with a pen (as opposed to written with something else) 中奖得的 - won as a prize (as opposed to obtaining it through other means) It's quite a common construction, used to emphasise a given aspect/characteristic of some object. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 18, 2011 at 10:38 PM Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 at 10:38 PM Man, I was off. I guess I should have looked at it in the whole sentence again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Rakoczi Posted April 19, 2011 at 10:50 PM Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 at 10:50 PM Do you have any more context No more I'm afraid, just what I posted on the first message. 花钱买的 - bought with money (as opposed to obtaining through other means) 用笔写的 - written with a pen (as opposed to written with something else) 中奖得的 - won as a prize (as opposed to obtaining it through other means) This is very interesting... I haven't come across this before, but I haven't done that much reading yet. Is this more common in speech than articles? Btw, do you have any longer examples at hand. I mean where these structures are used in context? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted April 19, 2011 at 11:15 PM Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 at 11:15 PM It's quite common in written stuff also. From Google: "花钱买的" - 49,100,000 results 狗是花钱买的是宝贝，猫是不要钱的就要死 花钱买的杀毒软件与不花钱的杀毒软件有什么区别 美国驻外大使都是花钱买的官吗 "用笔写的" - 3,110,000 results 如何去除门上用笔写的小广告 同学们，你们的日记都是用笔写的吧 "中奖得的" - 2,020,000 results 【出售】年会中奖得的，佳能CP800全新照片打印机 中奖得的礼物能卖吗 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Rakoczi Posted April 20, 2011 at 09:34 AM Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 at 09:34 AM Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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