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HashiriKata

Thanks for clearing up my doubt, skylee. You're right, it's from the song lyrics "短消息". In trying to make sense of that sentence, I think it could be that someone transcribing the song took 把 for 帮, as 帮 seems to make good sense here: 谁能帮我从这深渊里逃离.

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anonymoose

This discussion on 把 ba has been very interesting, and I think a number of questions still lack consensus in their answers. Unfortunately the responses seem to have dried up somewhat.

Anyway, I came across an interesting sentence using 把 ba. I've asked about it on these forums before, but I thought I'd mention it again here as it seems very relevant to the current discussion.

The sentence is interesting, to me at least, because 把 ba is used when there is no subject of the associated verb:

我上次看到把香蕉吃成那样是在动物园。

I can't find any references to this kind of sentence in any grammar books or online, and I still await a definitive answer on whether this structure is in fact formally acceptable, only colloquially acceptable, or completely unacceptable.

Any native speakers care to comment?

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Quest
我上次看到把香蕉吃成那样是在动物园。

Can't confirm formality other than this sentence sounds ok. There's a 的omitted after 那样。

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roddy

Chinese quite happily misses subjects. In this case it's a little hard to even say what the subject should be - you can't use 'anyone', 'someone', etc because they wouldn't apply to the implied monkeys.

把 and 了 are probably two examples of 'grammar points' which are actually both multiple 'points' - there's any number of different uses, and trying to deal with them all under one heading is problematic. More useful would be '把 for beginners' or '把 for the physical movement of an object', etc .

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anonymoose

Roddy

Chinese quite happily misses subjects.

Yes. But it is unusual for the subject to be omitted in a 把 sentence, except for imperative sentences: 把书放回书架上

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Kai13

Yeah, that's the question.

I still couldn't understand how to use it. What is it doing there? How can we make the sentence with it?

Here are a few example sentences of my book.

请把图书放回原处。

请把复印机关好。

我把汤和完了。

:help

If you could type in some other simple sentences I'd really appreciated.

Thanks.

Btw, do you know of any online resources with exercises? My teachers don't give me any. I only have my book's example sentences.

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abcdefg

This will get you started in the right direction until someone more learned comes along.

把 marks the noun which follows it as the direct object of the sentence to reduce the chance of confusion regarding what is being talked about.

请把图书放回原处。= Please, the book, put it back in order.

请把复印机关好. = Please, the copier, shut it off.

You have a typo in number three. It should be 喝 instead of 和。

So it becomes 我把汤喝完了。= “The soup, I drank it all up.”

It sounds awkward because you don't use that sentence structure in English. But it works well in Chinese. It's actually common daily speech; not just textbook stuff. Here's another:

请把那个手机给我。= Please, that phone, give it to me.

I don't know of any on-line grammar resources. Someone else will have to help with that.

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taylor04

So it would be 把 + Object + verb where it would normally be Verb + Object. I don't know if thats right or not, I really can't explain grammar.

请留下来你的电话号码 Please write your number down

请把你的电话号码留下来 Please write your number down

她把那本书看完了 She finished reading that book

她看完了那本书 She finished reading that book

As you can see the meaning doesn't change, only where you put the object.

This website goes into a bit more detail and has quite a few examples

http://www.ctcfl.ox.ac.uk/Grammar%20exercises/Ba.htm

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chrix

the object should also be definite and disposable (which also puts some restrictions on the verb that can occur with this construction).

I'm not aware of good grammar explaining websites, there's a wiki book on Chinese grammar I think, but I would still recommend getting a grammar book or work book.

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Kai13

Thanks! And how can I take the ba out of the sentence without loosing sense?

I have 2 grammar books "modern mandarin chinese grammar" and "begginer's chinese". Thing is I don't have time to use them since every day I learn a new lesson (I have chinese everyday) and have to study from my collge's book so I don't loose myself. Also, I can't find it on modern mandarin chinese grammar book ._."

Today, already in bed I'll search for it.

Thank you sooo much, to the 3 of you ;) :mrgreen:

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taylor04

If you were to talk 把 out of the sentence, you would have to rewrite the sentence as demonstrated above. As to your question though, it doesn't lose its meaning

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chrix

well 把 is a bit tricky. I think the best thing would be to go through the sections on 把 in your books until the picture becomes clearer.

taylor already gave you some examples in how it would look without it. But sometimes a sentence with 把 just "feels" strange without it, and a good grammar book should explain why this is so.

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imron

Merged. Please remember to search/read the stickies before posting. Many aspects of Chinese grammar have been covered quite thoroughly in previous posts.

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travelgirl

hey guys.the truth is that the 把 construction seems a little difficult to all learners.

to me too:lol:.my teacher gave some characters in order to make a sentence and the only order that seems right to me is this:说好汉语得看能不能经常把那练习。是不是?

do you find it correct?can you propose sth else?

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HashiriKata

Are these 说好汉语得看能不能经常把那练习 all the words given and you can't add your own? If so, your sentence sounds understandable to me but I'd personally say: 能不能说好汉语得看能不能经常把汉语练习练习.

Edit: Just noticed that I missed out the word 那 in your sentence. So to include 那 into my suggested sentence, it would be like this:

能不能说好汉语, 那得看能不能经常把汉语练习练习.

Edited by HashiriKata

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travelgirl

i would also prefer the one you wrote.But i have to put only these words.

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HashiriKata
i would also prefer the one you wrote.But i have to put only these words.
For this reason, I kept to the words you provided, only repeated them where it'd help making the sentence smoother.

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Shi Tong

Just to add my two cents here:

Ta ba wo de gou sha le

他我的狗杀了

Ta sha le wo de go

他杀了我的狗

The use of ba might come into use more often when speaking than writing because you may start your sentance and get half way along before thinking of it's grammar or structure.. therefore you might have already said:

"He/she got(ba)" before you think about the fact you could shorten the sentance with "he/she killed" at the start. Therefore you'd add the ba into it almost by mistake, but it allows you to end your sentance without having to "correct" it. Maybe? :D

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travelgirl

my teacher told me that the correct sentence is 能不能把汉语说好,那得看是不是经常练习:-?:-?i wouldn't think it bymyself.

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trien27
谁能帮我从这深渊里逃离.

Who can get me out of this abyss/labyrinth/maze?

But it is unusual for the subject to be omitted in a 把 sentence, except for imperative sentences

In 谁能帮我从这深渊里逃离,if you replace 帮 with 把, the subject would still be 我.

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