What Chinese texts or sentences are worth memorizing?

[edelweis]

This is inspired by rezaf's comment about 背默 and memorization of Chinese texts.

So, what texts do you people think are worth memorizing, for what purpose and at what level?

(level as in Chinese level, perhaps if you're a total beginner you have better things to do than memorizing Tang poetry?)

[rezaf]

It's different for everyone. I memorize TCM(內徑，...) and some western medical books just like most other students do at my university. It indirectly helps my Chinese and the way I write essays and reports about medical stuff. Probably the next 40 years of my life is gonna be about using those things so they are totally worth memorizing but if someone learns Chinese just for learning Chinese then I guess it will be difficult to choose the material. In my first year of studying Chinese I used to memorize almost all the texts and dialogues in my textbooks and although I can't recite them anymore the fact that I had them in my memory for a while helped me a lot in learning the correct grammar and basic conversations in Chinese. So I think at elementary level, students may choose a few interesting texts from their textbooks and review them over and over for at least the first year but after passing that level there is really no need to review them anymore. As for the advanced students, I think it really depends on what they like. A few months ago I memorized some parts of 道德經 and I'm gonna gradually memorize the rest. What I can tell you is that there are lots of things that we think we know or understand but after memorizing them we start to internalize them in a way that wouldn't be possible just by reading them. Probably one of the problems of most Chinese learners is that they don't need to study other subjects like biology, history,... and other things that require memorizing in Chinese but I think if we look at native speakers of any language an important part of their language ability comes from a decade of memorization and exams at school.

[Silent]

If it's only memorizing short term for writing it doesn't really matter. Just memorize sentences with the most advanced characters you want to write. Otherwise I feel it makes very little sense, unless you're a real beginner, to memorize sentences. If you're a real beginner memorize the obvious sentences that are used in basic conversation/inquiry. Like Where is....., I want......, Do you have...., etc.

[Silent]

if we look at native speakers of any language an important part of their language ability comes from a decade of memorization and exams at school.

I doubt it. I believe language abibilities come with use. Even illiterate people that never attended school speak their language well. It's just that they lack logic and more advanced knowledge that make their expressions less sophisticated and the lack of need that they have a more basic vocabulary.

[anonymoose]

In my opinion, memorising sentence patterns and model sentences is useful. On the other hand, I don't think memorising entire texts has much benefit.

[rezaf]

Even illiterate people that never attended school speak their language well. It's just that they lack logic and more advanced knowledge that make their expressions less sophisticated and the lack of need that they have a more basic vocabulary.

They speak their language well for their own daily life which is a very low level of language ability. So as you mention in your second sentence they don't speak their language well in comparison to educated people.

In my opinion, memorising sentence patterns and model sentences is useful. On the other hand, I don't think memorising entire texts has much benefit.

I think a combination of texts and sentences is necessary but as memorizing texts is difficult one shouldn't torture himself with them, that's why I said just some interesting texts. As I have a big vocabulary project on my hands I just memorize some easy example sentences for the words I have problem with so I am well aware of its benefit but language is not just disconnected sentences. I think memorizing entire texts helps me to see the internal structure of the language and the way a native speaker thinks and for all its worth memorizing a text or a dialogue gives me a better knowledge and memory about the sentences in them and how they can be connected to each other.

[Silent]

True, illiterate people don't speak their language well compared to educated people. This has nothing to do with memorizing, it has to do with not utilizing it. As far as they utilize it they speak it well without any memorizing. I never memorized the specific language used in my profession and hobby, I nevertheless do know it well. If I would have chosen to memorize terminology I would never use I still would not be able to utilize it well. The key is utilization, not memorization.

Memorization may help a little to 'kickstart' use, but without use memorization makes no sense. It's a matter of use it or loose it!

[rezaf]

Are you telling me you never had to memorize anything for your exams at school or college?

This has nothing to do with memorizing, it has to do with not utilizing it.

This is not correct. Memorizing and utilizing are both equally important. Without memorizing you won't have anything to utilize. However how you memorize is another matter. One might prefer to do it directly by memorizing texts, sentences, patterns, ... and one might prefer to do it indirectly by exposing himself to the language like reading tons of books, watching many hours of TV series,... but wether it's a direct or indirect process we do need to memorize.

[OneEye]

We were just talking about this in my class yesterday. My teacher mentioned that I had picked an unusual surname, and I said that it was in the 百家姓. She got really excited that I knew of that poem and started reciting it. She asked if I could recite any poems (I've mentioned things in class like 北方有佳人 and such), and I said 人之初，性本善 (I can't recite the whole thing, but some of it). She flipped out. She (like most Taiwanese kids, apparently) had to memorize them when she was young, in addition to 論語 and others. So it gets you cred in the eyes of Chinese teachers, for one thing.

I intend to memorize at least the 三字經, the 百家姓, and the 千字文 plus 大學，中庸，論語 and maybe some of the 詩經. I'm planning on doing my PhD in Chinese history, and I figured that if scholars throughout history have had these memorized and make frequent allusions to them, it would be useful for me to also memorize them. I've started on the 三字經, but I know it will be quite a while before I'm done with all this.

[lansu]

Recently on my blog I posted a story about kids enrolled in a private school in Haikou ... According to school officials there, up to the age of 13 or so, memorization is the only skill one should develop, so the kids memorize and recite texts from the Confucian canon, but are not taught the meaning of those texts ...

blog entry

[rezaf]

Sounds like an extreme brainwash. Maybe if they taught them the meaning of 易經，they would know what happens when things get too extreme.

Edit：Although I agree with them that memorization is the most important thing at the beginning, I strongly discourage going too extreme in one direction because as they say 物極必反. The only reason I have focused my learning on memorizing vocabulary and texts is because I do enough speaking, listening, reading and writing at university. I think most humans need variety no matter what they do and that's the only way to keep the balance.

[edelweis]

Thanks for these interesting opinions.

Silent, yes at the beginner level there is memorizing sentences or short dialogues in order to, well, learn the language. Perhaps even later, when learning complex sentence structures, it may be useful to memorize examples of those long sentences? at least until you have internalized the structure?

Rezaf, OneEye: thank you for the examples of what you (want to) memorize. Basically what you both deem worth memorizing is what can be of use in your vocations/studies (studying in Chinese something other than the Chinese language). It does make sense that in order to compete with Chinese classmates you would feel the need to memorize at least a part of what they have memorized.

I thought about learning the baijiaxing too, but it was more about becoming familiar with most surname characters rather than being able to recite it (I am always very embarrassed when meeting Chinese people and being unable to get their names right - if I had some idea about possible characters I could probably discern tones better - for 1/3 of each name anyway - and/or I could read their surname if they offer a name card).

[Silent]

This is not correct. Memorizing and utilizing are both equally important. Without memorizing you won't have anything to utilize.

Sorry, but this really is nonsense. Nobody ever consciously memorizes the basic grammar of their native tongue before they use it. Actually, many people are not aware of the grammar of their native tongue. They just know from experience how it's used, not from memorization.

Memorization is only usefull to help learning new things, but without utilization it won't work. You can memorize all the chinese grammar rules, you can memorize all the chinese words in the most extensive dictionary you can find, it won't make you proficient in Chinese. Only utilization can do that.

Utilization without any conscious memorization can bring you to high proficiency, memorization without utilization won't. Memorization is only a way to improve the learning curve.

[lansu]

Sounds like an extreme brainwash.

During the period known as the burning of the books (焚书坑儒 Fénshū kēngrú, early 3rd century), among the texts most likely to survive, for obvious reasons, were those that scholars had committed to memory (those scholars who were not buried along with their books) ... Thoughts passed from mind to mind, though susceptible to corruption, are not easily censored ...

[edelweis]

Regarding studying in a foreign language/memorization/language ability, a man who immigrated as a teenager told me that the first year he understood little French but memorized every lesson, this way he was able to get reasonably good grades at school. Later on his language ability increased (was it due to the heavy memorizing effort, the immersion, or both?) so he no longer needed to memorize the lessons since he understood what they meant. (his grades went down...)

[start introspection]

In a smaller way I too feel that if I understand something too easily, I will probably not remember it as well as I remember things that I have to work hard to understand. (Is this part of why I like learning languages?) [end introspection]

[realmayo]

Sorry, but this really is nonsense. Nobody ever consciously memorizes the basic grammar of their native tongue before they use it.

So what? I learned the basics of my native language while wearing nappies (diapers) and drinking breast milk. You recommend this approach for learning foreign languages too?

[Silent]

In this case I don't recommend anything, I just make a statement. But you may try. I suspect that regularly sucking on a chinese tit has a positive effect on chinese studies.

[realmayo]

Well maybe yes and maybe no. It's very faddish to scorn memorisation. But what I never understand is if you don't learn stuff in advance, how can you ever use it when the situation demands? -- unless you only encounter situations about which which you've had advance warning (and are therefore able to study the required vocab etc beforehand).

This link http://learn.gd/neuroplastic-learning/ refers to a book which is quoted as:

“The irony of this new discovery is that for hundreds of years educators did seem to sense that children’s brains had to be built up through exercises of increasing difficulty that strengthened brain functions. Up through the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries a classical education often included rote memorization of long poems in foreign languages, which strengthened the auditory memory (hence thinking in language) and an almost fanatical attention to handwriting, … Then in the 1960s educators dropped such traditional exercises from the curriculum”

[WestTexas]

IMO rote memorization for almost anything is a waste of time, language is perhaps an exception but to memorize a whole text... come on. That's what a computer does.

Kind of a rant here, but:

Before the dawn of the computer age, and to an even greater extent before the arrival of mass media, being able to quote or recite from memory certain 'important' texts was seen as a mark of an educated individual, and was something which impressed people. This was largely due to two factors: (1) At the time, the commonly read cannon of works was smaller, and so many of those listening would recognize the quote and feel a greater connection with the quoter and (2) At that time reading was largely the privilege of the elite or at least the well-educated. You can see both of these factors at work in the West, with people quoting Shakespeare and the Bible, and in China, with quotes from various canonical texts in ancient China. Lack of knowledge of the accepted cannon was seen as indicative or poor education or an uncultivated intellect.

However, in the modern age there exists no such accepted cannon, and in an age where a computer can recall information faster than the mind the glorification of memorization has gradually atrophied, although some if its residue remains in the culture. It makes no sense to spend hours agonizing over a passage you might need to refer to once or twice in the rest of your life when a computer or smart phone can provide the necessary text in seconds. I would go so far as to argue that those spending hours and hours of rote memorization are, for the most part, perfecting an obsolete skill and perhaps even making their thought mechanisms as a whole less efficient in their failure to properly interface with modern technology.

Language learning is one exception to this, as at the highest level it requires split-second decision making and a natural spontaneity which does not permit computerized reference. In addition, many languages have grammars which are either inherently ambiguous or intractable, from a computer's point of view, and thus a human mind is necessary. But I do not agree that memorization is an essential part of any learning, certainly not at the highest level.

For example, I have a degree in Computer Science. Some students might spend hours memorizing certain computer commands, but actually it is easy to look them up and there is literally never a situation when I will need to look them up and be away from a computer. If they are truly useful, I will use them enough to where I eventually do not need to look them up. My professors recognized this, and they focused their curriculum entirely around problem-solving and algorithm-design, completely eschewing memorization. On the tests, which were on paper, if certain commands needed to be called the names of the commands and their syntax would be provided, so the student would be able to more fully demonstrate his command of the skills taught; namely, knowing what commands to call in what order with what parameters.

And so I feel like memorization of long texts does not have a place in modern society, in other words, it is a waste of time.

[xiaocai]

In this case I don't recommend anything, I just make a statement. But you may try. I suspect that regularly sucking on a chinese tit has a positive effect on chinese studies.

So "your Chinese suck" is actually a compliment...