Compounds (辭) vs. Characters (字) and the need to preserve the latter

[jkhsu]

Now that this has digressed enough, I have a few thoughts:

1. Regarding usage of certain words / phrases considered offensive: Because I am learning Chinese, I don't have a feel for 崇洋媚外. I had to check it up and read about it. However, when I hear natives say that it's derogatory, I do listen because I know the same thing happens in other languages. I am not sure if this is a good example but the word "Oriental" is usually not used to describe people of East Asian ethnicity in the USA. It is considered offensive here. For example, most people in the USA would use "Asian or Asian American" when describing people instead of "Oriental". I read online that this is not the case in other places?

2. I get what rezaf is trying to say in post #78 but I don't totally agree that this is the reason why native Chinese in China might want to write English emails. The English language is commonly used for business communication. If I were a native Chinese in China, I'd take every opportunity to practice and write English.

I see the same thing happening in China and as someone who is fascinated by Chinese culture and language I am very worried that a lot of good things about them are being lost to history just because people are not trying to save them.

This is certainly not a false statement but I wouldn't use it to make a generalization as well. Perhaps it might help if you specify what are the "good things" being lost?

I have a friend who recently came to the USA from Shanghai who just loves Shanghainese food (not just any Chinese food but Shanghainese food). I've taken her to try all kinds of International food here but Chinese food (and preferably Shanghainese food) is what she likes. She also prefers to watch Chinese TV and listen to Chinese music. However, she loves name brand bags and shoes (obviously not Chinese brands -- probably made in China, I know). In general, what I've noticed with Chinese people is the acceptance of what they think are "best" instead of blindly accepting everything Western.

[renzhe]

I am not sure if this is a good example but the word "Oriental" is usually not used to describe people of East Asian ethnicity in the USA. It is considered offensive here. For example, most people in the USA would use "Asian or Asian American" when describing people instead of "Oriental". I read online that this is not the case in other places?

In the UK, the term "Oriental" is used where Americans would use the term "Asian".

The term "Asian" refers to people from the Indian subcontinent and surroundings: India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc.

[roddy]

Oriental to be honest isn't very likely to be heard, certainly not in any official context. I'd say it's a bit archaic - perhaps like 'coloured' it's not that the term itself is necessarily offensive, but it comes from an era when attitudes were different. and has fallen out of favour.

Although where would you put anyone Japanese on these lists

(Apologies for off-topic, but you lot started it )

[rezaf]

I don't see why these terms should be considered as offensive. Why should someone who is colored, black or asian get offended when they hear the actual color of their skin or ethnicity? If they consider this as offensive then it means that in their hearts they somehow believe that they are inferior to caucasians. Why can’t they just be proud when they hear the name of their skin color or ethnicity?

[Hofmann]

Because it's rarely accurate. Except "brown."

[Mark Yong]

It’s interesting how, by virtue of history, words that etymologically had no offensive connotations can turn out to be so over time.

The word ‘Oriental’ is of Latin origin ‘Orient’, which simply means ‘the East’. In the same way, the word ‘Occidental’ simply means ‘the West’. “Australia” comes from “Terra Australis Incognita”, which means “The Unknown Land of the South” (hence, my rather eccentric contention that Australia should really have been called 異南洲). Finally, North is also called ‘septentrionial’.

I would personally argue that the deliberately-contrived anachronisms that we hear so often in Chinese, e.g. 鬼佬 and 紅毛 for Caucasians, should, in principle, be the ones considered offensive, yet ironically they have been accepted, even by many Caucasians from my own observation. I guess the thing about language is that it is ultimately driven to general usage, trends and norms.

[xiaocai]

鬼佬 and 紅毛 for Caucasians, should, in principle, be the ones considered offensive, yet ironically they have been accepted, even by many Caucasians from my own observation.

This is not the case in Mainland China. Neither of these words has been accepted in standard Mandarin, and there are rarely used here.

[Iriya]

洋鬼子, on the other hand, is pretty common.

[renzhe]

I don't see why these terms should be considered as offensive. Why should someone who is colored, black or asian get offended when they hear the actual color of their skin or ethnicity?

If you reduce a person to their skin colour, which was (and is) the number one reason for slavery, genocide, and all sorts of discrimination, they just might come to the conclusion that you are not taking them seriously as a human being.

A more sensible approach IMHO would be to talk about the person's family, work, hobbies, achievements, and the like, and to leave the skin colour for discussions focussing on make-up and sun protection, and other fringe topics where it is relevant. That way you won't offend anybody.

If they consider this as offensive then it means that in their hearts they somehow believe that they are inferior to caucasians.

It's more probable that they consider the fact totally irrelevant, and are wary of people who consider it important. Because people who consider it more important than family, work, hobbies, achievements and the like, and intend to discuss it, often follow it with abuse, stereotypes and insults.

[realmayo]

Times like this you've got to ask yourself, what would Pinker say?

He would say:

This inspired a poem passed on to me by Saroja Subbiah, which circulated among the Maori staff in a New Zealand government office:

Dear White Fella

When I am born I’m black

When I grow up I’m black

When I am sick I’m black

When I go out ma sun I’m black

When I git cold I’m black

When I git scared I’m black

And when I die I’m still black.

But you white fella

When you’re born you’re pink

When you grow up you’re white

When you git sick you’re green

When you go out ma sun you go red

When you git cold you go blue

When you git scared you’re yellow

And when you die you’re grey

An you got the cheek to call me coloured?

[realmayo]

PS I think slavery was down to people making money off other people, but anyway.

Can't help feeling this thread has drifted somewhat from its original (and I thought very interesting) initial post.

[imron]

This is not the case in Mainland China.

No, it's not, but it's used all the time in Chinese communities overseas (even the Mandarin speaking ones).

As for caucasians that do not find it offensive, it's more than likely because they don't fully understand the word (I'm sure they've been told the meaning is 'foreign devil' or similar, and possibly think it's cool, but that doesn't mean they understand the word). Personally I put 鬼佬 in roughly the same category as chink, and think it's not a really word that people should use.

[rezaf]

If you reduce a person to their skin colour, which was (and is) the number one reason for slavery, genocide, and all sorts of discrimination, they just might come to the conclusion that you are not taking them seriously as a human being.

@Renzhe: I see what you mean but I don't think that your theory is complete. In case you have noticed in China when you tell someone that she is 很白. Most probably she will be very happy to hear it but if you tell someone that she is 很黑 she'll most probably take it as an insult. I don't think there is much of a history of slavery at least for han people based on the color of their skin. So why is it that 白 is a complement but 黑 is negative and as you said reducing a person to their skin?

There are some words that are specifically made for insulting like 洋鬼子, chink,... but I think getting insulted by hearing your actual skin color or ethnicity has some other reasons like inferiority complex. There are always two sides in everything. For example if a racist person uses “brown” to insult someone from the Middle East, it only becomes an insult if the Middle Eastern guy also thinks that brown is not a good color. By the same logic if the Middle Eastern guy is proud of his skin color and takes it as a complement then that racist person won’t be able to use brown to insult him anymore and has to find another word.

[Mark Yong]

In an attempt to draw this thread back to the original topic:

Drawing on an example from two previous threads regarding the same word:

1. http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/18627-written-chinese-in-the-pre-modern-southern-chinese-regions/page__p__149065#comment-149065

2. http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/6974-when-%E6%9E%AA-was-new/

Would 銃 be a viable character to revive for ‘gun’, to distinguish it from 槍 ‘spear’? The definition in one of the old dictionaries reads 『火器也』. I am anticipating that some of you may say that spears are not common in today’s world, so the modern substitution is valid. But perhaps, if a hypothetical fictional text had a sentence describing two warriors, one carrying a spear and another carrying a gun (okay, I realise I am stretching the analogy)? Also, I believe this is an example of a character that is used in Japanese.

[anonymoose]

What's wrong with using 枪 for 'gun' and 矛 for 'spear'?

[skylee]

I don't think we need to concern ourselves with whether or not some characters are used in Japanese. Plenty of chinese people speak English and / or Japanese nowadays, and plenty of Japanese people speak English and / or Chinese. And there is google translate plus many other automatic tools that one can carry in a cell phone. There does not seem to be a big problem in communication. And if you really have problems expressing the idea of a gun, you can always form a sign using your thumb and index finger and say bangbang.

[imron]

What's wrong with using 枪 for 'gun' and 矛 for 'spear'?

Because although similar, 枪 and 矛 are not the same (in the same way that lance and spear are not the same). See for example: 枪和矛有什么区别呀

[rezaf]

How about using 鎗 for gun?

[Mark Yong]

Another one that comes to mind is 煙 vs. 菸 when referring to tobacco and its end-products. In Simplified Characters, both tobacco (烟丝) and cigarettes (香烟) use the same character 烟, but the distinction is made in Traditional Characters, i.e. 菸絲 and 香煙, respectively. In this case：

1. 菸 refers to the tobacco leaves themselves. 《宋玉·九辨》葉菸邑而無色兮， 《廣韻》臭草。（smelly leaves?)

2. 煙 refers to the smoke produced (from burning tobacco).

On the basis of the above, I would therefore argue that the compound 煙草 should be 菸草.

It is interesting that in 閩南語, tobacco and cigarettes use the character 熏. 《說文》火煙上出也。从屮从黑，屮黑熏象也。《玉篇》熱也。《廣韻》火氣盛貌。同燻。

[xiaocai]

洋鬼子, on the other hand, is pretty common.

Being "common" (and it also heavily depends on how you define common, but I don't plan to go into there) does not mean that it has been accepted as not being offensive. Just like s**t and f**k can also be considered as being commonly used but are still taboo words under most circumstances.