"-m" finals in the Mandarin

[DespikableMi]

I always thought that [m] finals did not exist in Mandarin. However, later I have learned that in actual speech native speakers do pronounce the [m] final. For example, "Shénme" (什么) is almost always pronounced "Shémme" instead. But this only happens when the next syllable begins with the [m] initial and is preceded by a syllable that had /n/ or /ŋ/ finals. Because this is based on my observation, it would be nice if anyone can explain this.

[roddy]

Assimilation is, I think, the term you're looking for. You're better off thinking of it as a feature of fluent connected speech than a new final that should be on the pinyin charts. Stuff like this is rarely covered in Chinese teaching materials, partly as the people writing the teaching materials find it easier to assume everyone talks like pinyin charts, and that anyone who gets past elementary should be reading improving essays. You can look at what's available for English and extrapolate though. Look for terms like assimilation, connected speech, elision.

It's quite common for people to deny that they do this - as soon as you pay attention you talk more carefully and stop doing it.

[liuzhou]

_{Yes, as Roddy says, it's assimilation. Common in every language.}

_{Most English speakers pronounce "can go" as "cang go" or "can buy" as "cam buy" or "on Monday" as om Monday". Few speakers notice they are doing it. Few listeners hear it.}

_{What is happening is that your mouth gets ready to say the next consonant before you have finished the last one and so it comes out "wrong". Our brains filter it out unless we pay careful attention!}

_{I don't think there is any need however, to talk more carefully and avoid it, In fact, I'm not sure it's even possible.}

[Olle Linge]

_{I don't think there is any need however, to talk more carefully and avoid it, In fact, I'm not sure it's even possible.}

Of course it's possible, you just need to slow down a little bit and it works fine. However, I'm quite sure there is no need to do that. In fact, the opposite is true. If you always say 什麼 as two clearly distinguishable syllables (shen and me), it will sound strange. I don't think there is any need to really practise this very much, but it does help to pay close attention to how native speakers speak.

Still, I do believe clear pronunciation is better in the beginning. Assimilation is, as you say, a natural process that you will learn anyway.

[liuzhou]

Of course it's possible, you just need to slow down a little bit

OK. I meant I'm not sure it is possible in normal, fluent speech. I agree it is not "incorrect" to link words in this way. As I said, almost every native speaker does it.

[JonBI]

shenme is really just elided to 啥 shemme sounds iliterate. That being said, most people do not stick to charts, but neither do English speakers. wa-cha-do-wing. What are you doing. What have you been up to recently - see the point.

[Olle Linge]

shenme is really just elided to 啥 shemme sounds iliterate.

It should be added that this is quite dependent on region and person. I have lots of friends who use 啥 very rarely, but who use "shemme" all the time. I also have lots of friends who do the opposite and use 啥 all the time. I fail to see what this has to do with literacy, though.

[realmayo]

Yeah 啥 is a nasty northern thing isn't it? I'd assumed you wouldn't want to be hearing it south of, say, Henan.

[Iriya]

啥 comes from the 吴 dialects originally. 啥人, 为啥, etc.

There's also the verb + 个啥 structure, e.g. 笑个啥, 怕个啥, etc.

[imron]

啥 comes from the 吴 dialects originally. 啥人, 为啥, etc.

Do you have a reference for that? I've always associated those terms as northern too (they're certainly used all the time in the north).

[Iriya]

啥人 (sa nin) = 谁, 为啥 (wei sa) = 为什么 are 上海话.

[realmayo]

Ah really? Shows how little I know about northern Putonghua! So it's not particularly prevalent in the north?

Edit: that was written pre-Imron.

[imron]

Does that mean 人 and 为 also come from the 吴 dialects originally too?

A quick search turns up this article, which says 啥 has been around since pre-Qin, although it doesn't give any origins. Other people also seem to be confident that it's a northern thing.

So it's not particularly prevalent in the north?

It's highly prevalent in the north.

[Iriya]

So is 什么 just a more modern, Mandarin-specific word or what?

[realmayo]

Ok good, I'm glad my memory wasn't completely failing me there...

So the question becomes: do Shanghai people ever use 啥 when they're speaking Putonghua (apart from when they're trying to ape northerners)?

[imron]

So is 什么 just a more modern, Mandarin-specific word or what?

That I couldn't tell you. Anyway, I'm not saying that it isn't originally from 吴, I don't know either way, I'm just saying it's also used heavily in northern dialects and I'd want to see something more conclusive than the fact that it's also used in 吴, before feeling confident about its origin.

[Daan]

The sentences at http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/search?query=what&from=eng&to=wuu seem to indicate that 啥 is commonly used to mean "what" in modern Shanghainese, though of course that doesn't tell us anything about its origins.

A quick search in the word frequency tables I've been compiling for a data set of Sina Weibo messages doesn't seem to yield any particularly interesting results: it's as frequent in Shanghai as in Beijing in my sample, which is however quite small at the moment. (More details about those word frequency tables in a week or two, hopefully.)

[Iriya]

Do they really use 啥人 in the north? And if so, does it mean 谁 as in Wu or is it just a contraction of 什么人?

BTW, 怎么 is also absent from 上海话. They use 哪能 instead. E.g. 哪能办.

[imron]

Do they really use 啥人 in the north? And if so, does it mean 谁 as in Wu or is it just a contraction of 什么人?

I'm fairly sure they do, though more likely in the latter usage. 为啥 is definitely used for 为什么, and other usage e.g. 啥事 is also extremely common.

In the north they use 咋 instead of 怎么, which follows a similar sound transformation to 什么, e.g. 什么 -> 啥 (shá), 怎么 -> 咋 (zǎ), which I guess is another reason why I've always associated this as a northern thing.

[JonBI]

Sichuan people often say 啥事儿，pronounced sa－sir。 the m ending is very Shanghai, the same way much of the region cannot differentiate between 文 and 翁, 民 名, or sometimes 安 昂 the corruption of n to m is so Wu, and hence, a locality in Putonghua, and probably why in China you seem to encounter it in Shanghai, the same way the character 嗯 is pronounced 'em' there.