pronunciation usage of zhe4/zhei4 這 and na4/nei4 那

[LaoWai]

When should 這 be pronounced zhe4 or zhei4 and when should 那 be pronounced na4 or nei4?

[nipponman]

Well, I think these two examples are different. I.e. zhei4 is I think a variant of zhe4, and you can really use it in colloquial chinese to sound more natural, much like shei2 and shui2. But na4 and nei4 are completely different words function-wise. nei4 functions as an adjective with a measuer word after it. While na4 can function as the subject, object or whatever. Remember na4 is independent, nei4 is not.

[xiaocai]

"zhei" and "nei" are both variants which are only used before nouns or measure words.

[nipponman]

Ok, thanks for the correction, you saw it zhei and nei both need to be used before measure words and nouns. e.g. 這個人, the only difference between the uses of the two? You can say zhe4 ge5 ren2, but you cannot say na4 ge5 ren2, it should be nei4 ge5 ren2.

[Jose]

but you cannot say na4 ge5 ren2, it should be nei4 ge5 ren2

Are you sure? I think people say both nàge rén and nèige rén. I'm not sure about the relative frequency and geographical distribution of each pronunciation. That would be interesting to know.

I remember once reading in a textbook that the zhèi and nèi pronunciations were preferable in fornt of measure words. But whenever I've asked Chinese people about this, they've always told me I can use either without any difference.

[Guest IVYtony]

sorry, i would say nipponman is wrong.

na4 ge5 ren2 is more commonly used in written Chinese, while na2 ge5 ren2 is for colloquil Chinese.

[trevelyan]

Isn't "nei" short for 那一 and "zhei" short for 这一?

I've heard people say neixie dongxi, but that's the only time I think I've ever heard it used in the plural, and even that seems very kouyu.

[xiaocai]

trevelyan brought out the right-on explanation.

[nipponman]

IVYtony, where does this tone change come in? I was unaware that there was a tonal change here. Nevertheless, I learned it that you don't use nei4 for the subject or object, but this may not be as concrete as my book makes it out to be, so maybe I am wrong here. But my book is clear that nei4 is for measure words and na4 is for subject-object purposes.

Nipponman

[Claw]

So if nei4 is 那一, can you say nei4 liang3 ge4 ([那一]兩個)? I think I've heard it said that way before.

[nipponman]

I have just talked to my chinese friend and I have to say I was wrong, she says there is no difference between nei4 ge5 ren2 and na4 ge5 ren2, but she also says that na2 ge5 ren2 is wrong. So there you have it.