Anti Japan protests in your town? 钓鱼岛

[tokyo_girl]

Gato, I am not sure we disagree on much.

I deplore Japanese nationalists. As a conspicuous foreigner in Japan, married to a part Korean Japanese, I am as anathema to them as China. I find them frightening domestically and internationally. I don't see them as the voice of Japanese people though. If Shinzo Abe becomes PM I extremely concerned about the direction Japan could take. If he continues his aggressive stance on denying the Nanjing massacre, the fact that the Japanese govt / army was complicit in "comfort women", wanting nationalist textbooks, I don't see the US Japanese alliance lasting, particularly if Obama wins the election. If Romney were to win and Abe were to win...I shudder to think of the consequences.

Thank you for a link that showed the kill china slogan in the context of a protest. I deplore the sign, but it's notable that it is in English not in Japanese - their motivation seems to be to show the international media their feelings - otherwise they would have written in Japanese. In the case wipe Beijing off the face of the planet - I see a difference between that and kill chinese because Kill Chinese has the potential for domestic consequences, Nuke Beijing is directed at foreign policy. Japan needs to be very vigilant though. After the 1923 earthquake there were large scale massacres of Koreans (and also people from Tohoku who were mistaken for Koreans based on their accent.) There has been no mob violence in Japan to date with the current round of tensions.

I had read through the Chinese position on the islands, and it is as I said in my previous post - China's claims are grounded in, to use their words, an ancient claim to the territory. This is coupled with modern legalisms. Japan's claims are based on modern legalisms.

I was living in China in 1999 when the US bombed the Chinese Yugoslavian embassy. There were huge protests, and a lot of anger, but they were not violent. It's a sharp contrast to the recent protests where there was large scale damage and mob violence.

Thanks for the PDF on both sides claims. I will read through it.

As I said, I don't have a position on who is right or wrong on the islands, just on aggressive and antagonistic nationalism (where ever it comes from) and on mob violence.

[Kenny同志]

I was living in China in 1999 when the US bombed the Chinese Yugoslavian embassy. There were huge protests, and a lot of anger, but they were not violent. It's a sharp contrast to the recent protests where there was large scale damage and mob violence.

That’s partly because the Chinese hate Japan a lot more than they hated the then US government. Also, I believe (after reading some articles) that someone high in position (not Hu Jintao or Wen Jiabao) sanctioned part of the violence or even started it so as to benefit from the resulting chaos amid the ongoing political struggle.

[Kenny同志]

An episode of the VOA's

has shed some light on the protests.

[realmayo]

I think discussions like this show that sometimes if you get two pleasant, rational, smart people together there will be some things which they won't agree on, no matter how hard each side tries to persuade the other. People might all be the same deep down, but to get deep down far enough you've got to strip off 20, 30, 50 years or however old they are of being alive before you get down to the "all the same"-ness. So in reality, we're all different and the important thing is we can get along despite that. Part of that obviously involves understanding the ways in which other people think differently to us: for the great thing with having Kenny and Skylee and others representing more of the Chinese view is that it's a reminder not to write off the strong feelings on the Chinese side as just unthinking mob reaction or whatever. Hopefully this thread has also shown that most of China's neighbours increasingly dislike and fear China (as a foreign power) because of these policies over claiming land and seas. Again, it doesn't matter so much if they are right or wrong to do so: perhaps there's a Vietnamese-forums.com somewhere where a similar thread to this one is taking place over different islands. Sorry if this sounds pompous but perhaps in these situations understanding is more important than agreement?

[Outofin]

I think discussions like this show that sometimes if you get two pleasant, rational, smart people together there will be some things which they won't agree on, no matter how hard each side tries to persuade the other.

Already knew that when I was a teenager. Nothing wrong with good guys fighting good guys, even to death. Unlike science, politics has no truth in it.

[studychinese]

Here is the front page of a right wing Japanese magazine, Sapio. The front reads "The New Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere". Ironically pointing out that all those countries with flags are aligning with each other against China's aggressive stance.

[tokyo_girl]

Also, I believe (after reading some articles) that someone high in position (not Hu Jintao or Wen Jiabao) sanctioned part of the violence or even started it so as to benefit from the resulting chaos amid the ongoing political struggle.

This is pretty much what Ai Wei wei said, though I am not sure whether his remarks have been published in China, or whether he is held in much standing in China these days.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/14898471/chinas-ai-weiwei-anti-japan-protests-prepared/

What ever the reason for the protests, and I think it's hard to see how they weren't at least tacitly condoned by govt, the effect in Japan isn't good. Moderates here lose ground to stand on. Much like the actions of Japanese nationalists give Chinese moderates little ground to stand on.

From the Japanese side, Haruki Murakami wrote for Asahi yesterday about the dangers of nationalism, urging a change of attitude in Japan.

http://blogs.wsj.com...rritorial-rows/

I wish there were more people who would stand up against the excesses of nationalism.

And as for Sapio..... nationalists rarely seem to get irony and hypocrisy....

It's a bit like the Germans finding a racial link with Ainu to justify their alliance with Japan... go figure.

[studychinese]

Tokyo_girl,

I am not sure what you mean by proving Godwin's law here, but what is in the magazine is not racist. It merely points out that various countries in Asia are feeling threatened by China's sabre rattling, and are moving closer diplomatically because of it. There is no suggestion that race plays a role in that.

Anyway, you seem to be buying into the idea that the 'extreme right wing' is a powerful force in Japan. It isn't. If anything, it is the least powerful force in Japanese politics. But when you read a western newspaper, it seems like the only kind of politician that exists in Japan is the extreme right wing kind.

You mention former PM Shinzo Abe as one of these - but he isn't. Look into his record. And keep in mind that on several occasions he has been misquoted/mistranslated in the western media, and the misquotes/mistranslations should be considered deliberate because they were pointed out at the time, never corrected, and even Shinzo Abe as PM of Japan complained about it.

http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/03/05/congress-backstabs-us-ally-times-lie-trashes-abe/

[tokyo_girl]

Powerful... depends what you mean I guess.

Their power isn't in numbers, or in the extent of how wide their opinion is.

(which I have said consistently through this.)

It's that they punch far above their weight.

Maybe it's not fair to say that the uyoku are pushing politicians to the right, but there is a definite shift right in Japan.

I've seen little evidence to see that the Japanese people support nationalization of the Senkaku (at a cost of more than 2 billion yen) or nationalist flotillas and yet they occurred.

It is the Japanese nationalists that give ammunition to the protesters in China - metaphorically speaking. And I'd call that powerful.

The Nagoya mayor and the Tokyo mayor deny the Nanjing massacre.

Shinzou Abe has been selectively quoted (this might be more accurate than misquoted) but I would still class him as very nationalistic (though obviously not driving a black van). He is on the record recently for regretting not visiting Yasukuni as PM (and presumably would if he became PM again..)

The education system in Japan lacks in many respects, but I am often impressed by the sometimes naive faith that young Japanese have in international institutions to solve pressing global issues. It's very rare for me to meet someone who expresses deep antagonism to China here - and I often ask.(anecdotes mean nothing I realize, but I am sceptical of official surveys too).

As for Godwin's law, perhaps you missed the point. I'm not invoking the Nazis as a comparison, just pointing out the irony of Japanese nationalists, who consider themselves racially superior to Ainu forming an alliance with the Nazis who were able to justify the alliance racially on a dubious racial link with the Ainu.

[tokyo_girl]

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/chinese-media-in-japan-sends-message-home-nothing-much-to-report-here?utm_campaign=jt_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=jt_newsletter_2012-10-01_AM

Kenny, this might be interesting for you. There have definitely been protests, but very limited with minimal damage and little/no threat to safety. I was out with Chinese friends last week who were speaking Chinese much of the time and I didn't notice anyone give a sideward glance.

[Kenny同志]

Thanks, good to know that.

[Outofin]

Businessweek described the protests in China as "relatively tame", "maintained tight control", "largely free of violence".

[tokyo_girl]

Businessweek described the protests in China as "relatively tame", "maintained tight control", "largely free of violence".

Really? Do you have a link for that.

I'm quite interested to read what they have to say.

[Outofin]

I have a paper subscription. A little search on their web site finds the same article.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-27/china-what-kind-of-superpower

[tokyo_girl]

Thanks for the article. I've just got around to reading it now.

So at least there is commonality on a feeling that violent protests are a bad? and by extension that violent protests should be curbed, (preferably without the use of violence)? "

"Discouraging" glass bottles being thrown (as opposed to prohibiting it) doesn't inspire much confidence in the will curb destruction.

The article is quite right that "as nationalist war-mongering goes, the anti-Japanese demonstrations taking place across China have been relatively tame." But a broader picture of nationalist war mongering would bring in comparisons with Bosnia, World War I, and II etc. By such comparisons, absolutely it has been tame. But in comparison with stable societies in the 21st century.... I am not sure how fair the analysis is. Companies like Heiwado, I am sure, would not find it quite so tame. And, I imagine they, like a lot of Japanese and no doubt some Chinese as well, are asking questions about the lack of effort to protect them.

He is writing from a development perspective, and it goes with the genre to emphasise the potential for positive outcomes. He seems to be writing for an American audience, and making comparisons with the US about being a good international citizen is assuming that the US itself is a good international citizen, which is debatable when you consider the number of governments that the US has destabilized / over thrown / assisted to power in the post war era.

The protest themselves are not much of a mystery, but the relative toleration of violence is less clear. There are theories that it's to divert from domestic troubles, theories that it's part of a long range strategy to reclaim hegemony in east Asia, there are theories that it's motivated primarily to avenge for the wrongs of WWII. Realistically it's unlikely to be any single motivator.

May the two countries live together peacefully and prosperously without feeling the need to appeal to hatred or assertions of superiority in their dealings with each other.

[Outofin]

I posted the article though I don't totally agree with it. To me, it looks biased. But I used it as an example that how media manipulates their audience. I don't trust New York Times either, who often uses inflammatory language. Stop reading media. Talk to your Chinese friends.

[tokyo_girl]

;) That's what I am doing by coming here.

Living in Japan, unless I read the media, I wouldn't know what was happening.

By coming here, I hoped to get reasoned, considered voices from China

to counterbalance what I was reading in the media. My Chinese friends in Tokyo were

also getting most of their information from the media. I hesitate to ask friends (mostly

former students) in China about political matters. If I were talking in person, no problem

but I don't feel comfortable putting them in that situation to put thoughts about political

matters in writing.

I appreciate the insights I have gained on here, though I still have a lot of unanswered questions.

[Outofin]

2 pieces of news on the same day.

Shinzo Abe visited Yasukuni (again)

2 US soldiers raped a Japanese woman in Okinawa (again)

What a bizarre country. They have no problem being bullied. And they even take a step further, they worship bullies. Kindly remind you that the war criminals in the "shrine" didn't only bring disasters to China, Korea, the US, and many other countries, they dragged Japanese people themselves into the darkest time.

[fanglu]

And they even take a step further, they worship bullies

I agree, its very strange.

Mind you, they're not alone in this - There's always a queue to get into the Mao mausoleum in tiananmen square, and George Washington was a slave owner and the white house and capitol building were built by slaves but they're 'worshiped' as part of the civic religion in the united states.

[Outofin]

That's a good point. Great politicians have both positive and negative impact on us, sometime tremendous. Admiring Mao or Washington doesn't mean that we support cultural revolution or slave system. But for likes of Isoroku Yamamoto, what the Japanese find favorable in them? Can someone explain?