Chinese translation of "What is mathematics?"

[Demian]

R. Courant's "What is mathematics?" is a popular book among math lovers. I will have my copy before the end of this month. When I was ordering the book through a local online vendor, it occurred to me to check if there was already a Chinese translation available. I did a search on Amazon China and Books Taiwan. Both had a Chinese translation available. I thought they would differ only in the choice of characters. I was wrong. They seem to be two different translations of the same work. I found it interesting, so I am sharing here.

Simplified edition: 数学是什么？

Traditional edition: 數學是什麼？

And yes, is it common for China and Taiwan to translate same books twice?

[skylee]

Consider 何謂數學.

[Lu]

And yes, is it common for China and Taiwan to translate same books twice?

I think Harry Potter also got translated twice. There are some small differences between Guoyu and Putonghua, in characters of course, but also in some words, and in use of language. You'll also find differencent translations in manuals, for example.

[skylee]

Here is a relevant example -> http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/25240-differences-in-hong-kongprc-grammar-and-spelling/#comment-211107

[Kenny同志]

What are the differences between 國語 and 普通話？

[Kobo-Daishi]

kenny2006woo wrote:

What are the differences between 國語 and 普通話？

http://chinese-linguipedia.org/

http://www.zhonghuayuwen.org/

Kobo.

[Kenny同志]

Thanks Kobo, but I can't find anything relevant on the two sites.

To me, 國語 and 普通話 are just two different names meaning the same thing, i.e. standard spoken Chinese, with 國語 used more often in Taiwan and 普通話 on the Mainland.

Edit: As an aside, I prefer the term 國語 and I think it's easier to understand （國語 national language). As for the other term, many people may hold the idea that it means ordinary language, rather than common language.

[skylee]

They have different standards (e.g. pronunciations).

[Kenny同志]

I don't think so. I think the standard is just a Taiwan versus Mainland thing, for example, I speak 普通話, but I am still correct if I claim what I speak is 國語.

[skylee]

Your question was - "What are the differences between 國語 and 普通話？" And they do have different standards. Consider the different pronunciations of 驟 for example. But only you can tell whether they are different in your opinion. You can of course claim whatever you like.

[Kenny同志]

I would say 台灣國語 and 大陸國語 have different pronunciations for certain words.

[Kobo-Daishi]

If Kenny2006woo and Skylee, both native Chinese-speakers can't tell the difference between Taiwanese Mandarin and mainland Mandarin, what chance do we have? ,

Kobo.

[Kenny同志]

Very much like British English and American English, it requires some serious research to find out all the differences between these two variants of the Chinese language (both spoken and written), chiefly in vocabulary and pronunciation.

By the way, Kobo, you can call me Kenny.

[陳德聰]

I think I can assure you that the differences between British and American English require very little research to discover. Especially their pronunciation.

I was under the impression that people on the mainland don't ever refer to 普通话 as 國語...

As for the double translations, Harry Potter definitely got translated twice, I have the traditional characters version and my friend has the simplified and it is definitely fun to go through together and pick out all the differences in translation. But to be fair, if two different people translated the same book separately there would be tonnes of differences even if they were both mainland/both Taiwanese Mandarin speakers! That's just how translation works.

[Lu]

What are the differences between 國語 and 普通話？

Different pronunciation; a few different words; but also the differences in usage that comes from 70 years of separate development. Chinese uses some phrases that Taiwanese people simply don't understand and vice versa. In Taiwan I can use the word 龜毛 and answer 不會 to someone's 謝謝 (yes I know this is 'wrong', strictly speaking, but the only people who'll say it's wrong are teachers); in China I can say 行 when someone makes a suggestion, and when I asked a bunch of Taiwanese what 上纲上线 meant, it left them baffled. Or compare some manuals or such things, the Taiwanese version uses slightly different words and phrasing. Standard Guoyu won't look wrong to a Mainland Chinese and vice versa, but the things people will say and write are slightly different.

I suppose it's like the difference between Dutch and Flemish; British and American English; Portuguese Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese. The standard can be the same, but people use the language slightly differently.

[anonymoose]

Incidentally, 龟毛 seems to have caught on on the mainland too.

[realmayo]

Occasionally older people on the mainland used 國語 when asking me about my learning Chinese: I remember thinking a few times it it seemed like they were running through a list of nouns in their head and decided this one was the best one to use in this instance, -- maybe for them 普通话 was something their children and grandchildren were forced to learn at school.

[Kenny同志]

My view remains unchanged, that is, 國語 and 普通話 are the same thing, both meaning standard spoken Chinese. And I see nothing wrong if someone refers to standard spoken Chinese used on Taiwan as 普通話 or that on the Mainland as 國語. It's very likely that the adoption of the different terms on the two sides of the strait resulted from political confrontation long ago. According to the sixth edition of 現代漢語詞典, 國語"指本國人民共同使用的語言。在我國是漢語普通話的舊稱."

Edit:

Despite differences in grammar, usage, pronunciation, and vocabulary, spoken British English and spoken American English are still spoken English.

This might help:

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/21016740.html

共和国推广的普通话就是民国政府推行的国语。是一回事。但是，国语还有新老之分。“老国音”包含一些吴语的特征，“新国音”纯粹以北京话的读音为准。制定老国音的是民国时期的一个政府机构，以著名语言学家赵元任先生为主。大约70年代，赵先生还在大陆录过“老国音”——全世界只有他一个人会说的人工语言。这个“老国音”后来作废了。所以，蒋介石时代，全国推行的就是“新国音”，也就是“国语”，也就是我们后来改了名字的“普通话”。

[OneEye]

台灣國語 is not a nice term in Taiwan (a fact which I think illustrates the point here quite nicely). It does not refer to Standard Mandarin here. It's used to belittle native speakers of Taiwanese Minnan when they speak Mandarin, and carries connotations of being uneducated, unsophisticated, or rural. And Kenny, many Taiwanese people would take issue with someone referring to Taiwanese Mandarin as 普通話, whether you would or not. To most people here, 普通話 refers to the standard in China.

I think it's been pretty well-established by this point that 國語 is being used in this thread to refer to Mandarin in Taiwan, and 普通話 to refer to Mandarin in China, so I don't really understand Kenny's apparent confusion about the terms. Anyway, nobody is saying that they're different languages, the same way nobody would say American English and British English are different languages. There are differences, however, and the differences are not insignificant.

[Kenny同志]

我想說的是，國語與普通話這兩個詞都是相對方言而言的，並非是為區分大陸標準通行口語和台灣標準通行口語。中華民國政府和大陸政府推行的標準通行口語也沒什麼差別，祗是沿用了不同的稱呼而已。時至今日，兩岸所通行之標準口語之所以有差別，是六十多年的阻隔造成的。

另外，我想提一點。香港的很多電視劇和電影都有粵語國語兩個版本。國語是配音，且配音員基本為大陸人士，但我們並不能因此說香港的製片公司錯了，不應標“國語”，而應標“普通話“。

Well, we're off-topic.

Anyway, my point is the two terms are not supposed to tag the standards of Taiwan and the Mainland, but rather they are used to distinguish themselves from China's numerous dialects. They are just names adopted by Taipei and Beijing for the spoken Chinese languages (which are essentially the same) the two authorities have been promoting. Their differences are chiefly due to more than sixty years of separation.

Plus, most HK TV series and films originally come in a Cantonese version and then they are dubbed to Mandarin by native speakers from the Mainland but I don't think we can fault those HK producers for tagging their discs 粵語 國語 rather than 粵語 普通話.

And Kenny, many Taiwanese people would take issue with someone referring to Taiwanese Mandarin as 普通話, whether you would or not. To most people here, 普通話 refers to the standard in China.

Oneeye, many Mainlanders, if not most, would say 簡化字 is a more advanced writing system and far superior to 正體字. So what?