Connotations of 洋

[roddy]

Following on from this

I feel that a number of terms using 洋 are derogatory or have negative connotations. The 洋场 in the topic linked above is one. I see shops selling 西服, but never 洋服, and I think if you described someone as wearing 洋服 you might be implying he's a bit of a 假洋鬼子.

Obviously this is not always the case - the humble 洋葱 has nothing to fear.

Agree? Disagree? Are there any of the other 洋- words that could have negative connotations?

Roddy

[gato]

洋 just means ocean and is used to refer to something/someone foreign. In my experience, 洋人 is usually used to refer to whites, probably because the term was originally used to refer to people from Europe and North America, who were virtually all white. I've never heard it used to refer to Japanese or Africans, for instance.

洋 as a descriptor is usually not negative at all -- unless it's used to mock, as in your 假洋鬼子 example. Indeed, it's often used with a sense of envy, implying that 洋人 are better than the Chinese, or 洋货 (Western products) are better than Chinese products. But as the Chinese lose their sense of inferiority, the connotation of 洋 might be changing, too.

In 假洋鬼子, it's not 洋 that's negative, but 假 (phoney) and 鬼子 (ghost).

[Quest]

The zi 洋 has a strong colonial connotation, but it's not derogatory. I think that's the main reason why it got phased out.

[xiaoxiajenny]

Edit: No need to copy and paste entire dictionary entries, thankyou

Roddy

[wushijiao]

I think it is only derogatory when it is meant to be derogatory. Perhaps this is just my mistaken speculation, but people who still use 洋 in a derogatory sense would be seen as old-fashioned and fairly provincial.

I sometimes refer to myself as a 真洋鬼子.

[Ian_Lee]

In HK, those old style western suit shop (tailor made kind) is generally called 洋服店 albeit verbally everyone calls western suit 西装.

Moreover, the term 西洋 is quite often used in Macau. Read:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4803

[Ian_Lee]

Moreover, 洋人 doesn't exclusively refer to White.

During the late Qing and early ROC period, 東洋人 refers to Japan. In Bruce Lee movies, you can see him beat 東洋鬼子.

[wushijiao]

Does anyone know if the term 出洋相 (meaning to make a laughing stock out of oneself) is derived from anything foreign, with negative connotations?

[gato]

During the late Qing and early ROC period, 東洋人 refers to Japan. In Bruce Lee movies, you can see him beat 東洋鬼子.

So it was used to refer to Japanese pre-1930? How about today?

[Quest]

So it was used to refer to Japanese pre-1930? How about today?

日本人，鬼子，日本鬼子，东洋人，东瀛人，倭寇，倭人，萝卜头，小日本。。。等等。

[gato]

小日本。。。等等

You mean there's more? Is it because they're so much on people's mind, like the Eskimos supposedly have 40 different words to describe snow?

东瀛人，倭寇

Are these two used by Mandarin speakers?

[Quest]

Are these two used by Mandarin speakers?

Yes they are, but more so in a historical context.

倭人, 鬼子，and 小日本 are the most used derogatory ones now.

Japanese call themselves 大和民族, 和=倭 in Chinese.

[Ian_Lee]

Strictly speaking, 倭 is not a derogatory term. It just refers to the fact that Japanese are short in height which was correct during the Pre-WWII days.

东瀛 is actually a beautifying term. There is a tour agency called 东瀛遊 in HK which specializes in outbound groups to Japan.

[Ian_Lee]

In HK, it is more common to write 出洋留學 than 出國留學 which actually is more correct since no matter where you go to study you got to fly over the ocean.